If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Engine Dependability
I talked to TCM today to register that I am the new owner of one of
their engines. Just in passing, I mentioned that their engine failed recently within a few hundred hours after major overhaul. They seemed completely uninterested in knowing this fact. I asked if they kept actual statistics on actual dependability of their engines. She said that they did not, to the best of her knowledge. That seems quite odd. Where do they get TBO numbers from. I always assumed there was some serious historical statistical date to back these up. Does anyone keep these statistics? Perhaps A&Ps report such failures? Overhaul shops maybe? I sure hope someone is tracking the information. -Sami N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... I talked to TCM today to register that I am the new owner of one of their engines. Just in passing, I mentioned that their engine failed recently within a few hundred hours after major overhaul. They seemed completely uninterested in knowing this fact. I asked if they kept actual statistics on actual dependability of their engines. She said that they did not, to the best of her knowledge. That seems quite odd. Ah, a new owner. Continental makes bulletproof bottom ends. Case, crank and cam are terrific, they will never give you any problems. Avoid new Continental cylinders like the plague. Total junk. I think ECI has the better cylinders, some like Milleniums. Where do they get TBO numbers from. I always assumed there was some serious historical statistical date to back these up. Does anyone keep these statistics? Perhaps A&Ps report such failures? Overhaul shops maybe? I sure hope someone is tracking the information. Nobody is tracking the info. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:02:11 -0600, Newps wrote:
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ... I talked to TCM today to register that I am the new owner of one of their engines. Just in passing, I mentioned that their engine failed recently within a few hundred hours after major overhaul. They seemed completely uninterested in knowing this fact. I asked if they kept actual statistics on actual dependability of their engines. She said that they did not, to the best of her knowledge. That seems quite odd. Ah, a new owner. Continental makes bulletproof bottom ends. Case, crank and cam are terrific, they will never give you any problems. Avoid new Continental cylinders like the plague. Total junk. I think ECI has the better cylinders, some like Milleniums. Where do they get TBO numbers from. I always assumed there was some serious historical statistical date to back these up. Does anyone keep these statistics? Perhaps A&Ps report such failures? Overhaul shops maybe? I sure hope someone is tracking the information. Nobody is tracking the info. Well, I guess that puts us back to the original question. I, like the orginal article's author, thought historical statistics were used to establish TBO numbers. If no one is tracking this information, where do the TBO numbers come from? Insurance liability statistics from wrecks? |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
"Greg Copeland" wrote in message news Well, I guess that puts us back to the original question. I, like the orginal article's author, thought historical statistics were used to establish TBO numbers. If no one is tracking this information, where do the TBO numbers come from? Insurance liability statistics from wrecks? TBO comes from two places. 1) Marketing 2) A Guess |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:53:36 -0600, Newps wrote:
"Greg Copeland" wrote in message news Well, I guess that puts us back to the original question. I, like the orginal article's author, thought historical statistics were used to establish TBO numbers. If no one is tracking this information, where do the TBO numbers come from? Insurance liability statistics from wrecks? TBO comes from two places. 1) Marketing 2) A Guess LOL! Is anyone else bothered by this? I guess it's not really saying MTBF, it's just saying, your engine is ganna be tired when it hit this number. So, I guess that really isn't all that bad after all. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Greg Copeland wrote: On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:53:36 -0600, Newps wrote: "Greg Copeland" wrote in message news Well, I guess that puts us back to the original question. I, like the orginal article's author, thought historical statistics were used to establish TBO numbers. If no one is tracking this information, where do the TBO numbers come from? Insurance liability statistics from wrecks? TBO comes from two places. 1) Marketing 2) A Guess LOL! Is anyone else bothered by this? I guess it's not really saying MTBF, it's just saying, your engine is ganna be tired when it hit this number. So, I guess that really isn't all that bad after all. I, for one, prefer to base my decisions on facts instead of speculations. How do they know the engine will be tired after x hours? What does tired mean? The only thing that would be meaningful to owners is probability of failure at X hours. It does not seem that collecting the data and calculating MTBF would be that hard. I sure hope the engineers who designed the engine did not use the same attitude with respect to the components they used! "Crankshaft A is 20% cheaper than Crankshaft B? Well, who cares, everyone knows that everyone just makes the reliability numbers up anyway. Let's use Crankshaft A." Arg! |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote: Just in passing, I mentioned that their engine failed recently within a few hundred hours after major overhaul. They seemed completely uninterested in knowing this fact. No surprise. In the seven+ years I've been involved in general aviation, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything nice about TCM. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
There is too much variability in operation to accurately track reliability/dependability of an engine. TBO comes from the manufacturer's test stand and flight test data under controlled conditions. Same place the 55/65/75% power data comes from. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
EDR,
I am afraid that I beg to differ. You certainly may question the value of an "average" TBO to decision-making, but you can track the numbers quite accurately (assuming correct reporting). It would really only take the cooperation of a small number of overhaul shops, some A&P mechanics and such. In the same way, one could question the value of the accident rate of the "average" GA pilot. Granted that all of us are above average (apologies to Garrison Keillor), but such statistics can be useful starting points, for example, to see if trends are improving or if a given measure is worthwhile. Similarly, average disease mortality rates are useful for medical treatment, despite no person being average. I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but I really think it would be a good idea, from an engineering perspective, to collect and report this data. -Sami N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III EDR wrote: There is too much variability in operation to accurately track reliability/dependability of an engine. TBO comes from the manufacturer's test stand and flight test data under controlled conditions. Same place the 55/65/75% power data comes from. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
In article , O. Sami Saydjari
wrote: EDR, I am afraid that I beg to differ. You certainly may question the value of an "average" TBO to decision-making, but you can track the numbers quite accurately (assuming correct reporting). It would really only take the cooperation of a small number of overhaul shops, some A&P mechanics and such. In the same way, one could question the value of the accident rate of the "average" GA pilot. Granted that all of us are above average (apologies to Garrison Keillor), but such statistics can be useful starting points, for example, to see if trends are improving or if a given measure is worthwhile. Similarly, average disease mortality rates are useful for medical treatment, despite no person being average. I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but I really think it would be a good idea, from an engineering perspective, to collect and report this data. Sami, Find some Pitts pilots who flys Intermediate or Advanced competition. Ask them what the TBO is on a Lycoming AEIO-360/540. Ask them how many hours they flew their Pitts doing competition aerobatics (practice and contests). The engines are 1200 or 1400 TBO (IIRC). Most competition pilots overhaul between 600 and 700 hours. When you go from wide open to closed throttle repeatedly, the engine experiences higher than normal wear. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Proposals for air breathing hypersonic craft. I | Robert Clark | Military Aviation | 2 | May 26th 04 06:42 PM |
My Engine Fire!! | [email protected] | Owning | 1 | March 31st 04 01:41 PM |
Engine... Overhaul? / Replace? advice please | text news | Owning | 11 | February 17th 04 04:44 PM |
Car engine FAA certified for airplane use | Cy Galley | Home Built | 10 | February 6th 04 03:03 PM |
Corky's engine choice | Corky Scott | Home Built | 39 | August 8th 03 04:29 AM |