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#11
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Contest Wait list
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport. It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total. I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads. Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?) Just a thought as I entered my next years contests WH ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook, 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day. So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes. IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World CHampionships. |
#12
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Contest Wait list
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote: As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport. It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total. I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads. Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?) Just a thought as I entered my next years contests WH ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook, 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day. So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes. IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships. My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it - Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience. In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1 So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families. WH |
#14
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Contest Wait list
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride! On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote: On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote: As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport. It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total. I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads. Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?) Just a thought as I entered my next years contests WH ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook, 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day. So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes. IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships. My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it - Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience. In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1 So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families. WH -- Dan, 5J Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address. I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying. We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close) but what about: High school kids College kids young workers with and without families Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me) ..................... each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying. Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts. WH |
#15
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Contest Wait list
On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote: A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride! On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: Snip... Wow that's interesting - can you send me how that one was organized - to my email address. I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying. We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close) but what about: High school kids College kids young workers with and without families Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me) .................... each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying. Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts. WH Just finished several hours of hanging outdoor Christmas ornaments (Ah, retirement!), winter's approaching, and for some reason my philosophical gene feels the need... "Right you are!" regarding no single "correct answer," and needing "lotsa answers/attempts." Based on a sample of one (i.e. me) over 40+ years, in pilot-participation terms SSA-sanctioned contests never were a personal draw. And not until ~2013 did I even attend one (as Joe Crew). Nonetheless, along the years I eagerly looked forward to, and avidly read, "Soaring" mag's, major contest writeups...and - especially earlier in my burgeoning XC "career" - actively strove to "be as good as those contest guys," as measured by my assessment of growing personal XC skills. Almost from before obtaining my gruberment-issued PP(G) ticket, I was mentally hooked on XC. By the time several summers'-worth of experience were beneath my belt, "camps" had thoroughly sucked me in. (Different places! Nothing to do but go soaring! Woo hoo!!!) Eventually, I learned something about my soaring self that had zero/zip/nada to do with soaring, namely, I liked to soar one heckuva lot more than I did driving to *where* to soar. To be clear, I *love* Road Trips, but I do NOT love glider-towing-road-trips *when* the primary reason is for me to go soaring. My "druther limit" pretty much became about one comfortable day's worth of driving...say 8 hours or so. I also eventually concluded I loved challenging myself against a day's weather *much* more than I did the thought of letting someone else pick my course and - by arguable extension - my time aloft. "Different strokes for different folks," definitely applied to my way of thinking. And for two decades, each year's Major Vacation was a week-long soaring camp; some years I was lucky enough to enjoy multiple weeks'-worth of soaring camps. My "primary camp" ran from ~1984-2009 (at Dalhart, TX). It began when a small group of Dalhartians thought to put on a camp they hoped more experienced pilots than them would attend, so they could suck out their XC knowledge through straws stuck in their ears; the Dalhartians wanted to learn how to actually do O&R's in their 2-33 and 1-26s, as distinct from vulgar downwind dashes. They succeeded beyond - so I imagine - their wildest hopes, even though they also burned themselves out in the organizational sense within 4 years. By that time a sparkplug person in "my home club" decided to make the next year's camp a Soaring Society of Boulder-sponsored camp, camps being things long enshrined in SSB's Bylaws. And so it remained for ~2 decades, though with differing (and sometimes circularly-repeating) sparkplugs, sometimes with two tugs, more commonly with one, glider participation numbers ranging from 17 to 6, pilot skill levels from tyro to World-Championship-participating. Many an SSB pilot made their initial off-field landing at the camp (sometimes in 2-seaters!), most of whom haven't yet aged out continuing to fly XC. That particular camp eventually lapsed due to (IMO) changing demographics in conjunction with human nature, human nature being the more powerful contributor, IMO. In SSB's part of the world, "the mountains" exert a powerful draw upon Joe Average Glider Pilot XC Wannabe's imagination and personal dreams. I was no different in the immediate time-shadow of my licensing. Yet despite having (successfully...as in never having landed out in the mountains at anything other than an airport) learned mountain-flying XC "self-taught" - and had a Great Time so doing! - it quite quickly became clear to me that safely learning XC above more benign OFL territory was likely quicker, and less mentally stressful, than doing so in the Rocky Mountains. And yet... ....over the years, the Most Difficult hurdle to reconvening the Dalhart Camp every summer as a Club event, wasn't recruiting a tuggy/tuggies, but was annually convincing one or more Joe XC newbies to commit to the camp "for their own XC-good/future-development." "Everyone" of that level "just naturally wanted" to go fly a *mountain* camp, even though their XC skills largely grew about as slowly there as a pinon pine (i.e. slowly), as to the lombardy-poplar-like (i.e. rapid) growth Dalhart encouraged. I suspect all the above, in conceptual terms, is already well known to most XC-experienced soaring pilots, so why did I bother to go on at such length? Simply because Entirely Independent of *where* any soaring event is held, are some (perhaps less obvious to Joe XC newbie? Or even some of the sport's more experienced XC types, whose "often congenital" independence might help obscure the following verities) Absolutely Critical Realities: In no particular order... - nothing happens without a sparkplug (ideally, several); - More (of any sort of XC-encouraging) activity/camps is better; - choice is good; - all XC is good - contests (formal/informal)/camps (of any sort)/seminars/etc. - likely the largest single hurdle is Joe Wannnabe XC-Pilot's personal commitment to "invest in him/herself," to "just do it," by which I mean routinely biasing their personal daily-life decisions in favor of soaring rather than "something else" whenever such ponderations come actively to mind. If it ain't sufficiently personally rewarding, Joe Pilot ain't gonna do it. (Duh.) YMMV, Bob W. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#16
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Contest Wait list
PM sent.
On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote: A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride! On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote: On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote: As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport. It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total. I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads. Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?) Just a thought as I entered my next years contests WH ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT - so I rule out geography IMHO Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook, 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day. So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes. IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships. My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it - Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience. In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1 So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families. WH -- Dan, 5J Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address. I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying. We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close) but what about: High school kids College kids young workers with and without families Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me) .................... each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying. Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts. WH -- Dan, 5J |
#17
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Contest Wait list
Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.
I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying. We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly (I am close) but what about: High school kids College kids young workers with and without families Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me) .................... each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying. Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts. WH This is what I've been wrestling with. I'm a new glider pilot, living in an area where almost no-one flies gliders (one other guy about 12 miles away). I live in the middle of an Indian Reservation in MT, with two "major" cities (populations about 73,000 and 23,000) over an hour's drive away. The local area holds tremendous ridge soaring potential, I think. However, there is a lot of poverty around here, and sparse population. How does one get people involved locally? Ideas I've tossed around, but haven't implemented yet, include advertising at the local FBOs (there are 3 airports within a 20 mile radius), advertising with flyers in the FBOs of the airports at the two "major" cities, contacting local news media to do a "local interest segment", working out some sort of partnership/arrangement with the local Boys & Girls club, which is pretty active, possibly getting some celebrities who live locally to participate or get involved in some way or another. My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means. There is a stigma in the general population that flying is expensive. And for the most part, they are right. But I believe, that if it is done right, we could do something sustainable here locally, in a way that won't cost an arm and a leg. We need to get young people back into flying again, and it is my hope that flying gliders could be a way of doing this. We just have to get something "off the ground", in order to get some momentum. And that takes a bit of money. |
#18
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Contest Wait list
On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 21:01:51 -0800, John Foster wrote:
My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means. Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#19
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Contest Wait list
Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different
from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org Thanks, Martin - you beat me to the clock with that reply! IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much lower operating cost. John F.: send me a PM and we can discuss how to pull off the winch part (pun intended!) Uli 'AS' |
#20
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Contest Wait list
On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 05:58:14 -0800, AS wrote:
IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much lower operating cost. Speaking of which, when I was in Szentes (SE Hungary, 40km north of Szeged, I found a very small glider club operating off a grass strip. They had a single drum winch on the back of a truck chassis, which I didn't get a close look at, a beat-up old car for cable retrieval, a Rubik R-26 Gobe two-seat glider and a Scheibe SF-25 touring motor glider. That Gobe is the first I've seen, though its in the Martin Simon's "Sailplanes 1920-2000" set of three books. Its an all-metal shoulder wing glider with fabric on the wings behind the main spar, fabric-covered control surfaces and fuselage sides. It is similar in age and performance to an SGS 2-33 though its ergonomics, especially for the instructor, look better. The instructor sits between the slightly swept-forward wing leading edges. He sits a lot higher than the student so he has a good view of both the only control panel, down over the student's shoulders, and straight out above the his head. I was offered a flight but didn't get one because the weather wasn't cooperating when I could have flown. But, to avoid going entirely off thread, I imagine their operating costs as a club would be minimal. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
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