"Why was a plane able to fly over New York?"

wrote:
John Theune wrote:
What cities do not allow GA near/over them? I've not heard of any.

Paris for sure is Class A to the ground. Other cities in France have
rules according to their size, which typically make it "de facto"
impossible to fly over them. It is possible to fly over towns and
smaller cities in France.

I'm not sure about London - I go there often enough, and I've never
seen a small plane over the city - so I'm guessing it goes about the
same way there. Again you do see VFR traffic over smaller UK cities.

Switzerland, I believe, is very restrictive as well.

GF

You are confusing GA with VFR traffic. While some of those cities MAY
have controlled airspace to the ground, they do not ban GA. Even if
they have controlled airspace to the ground it may not prohibit VFR
traffic. Yes Class A requires IFR but if it's Class B or below then you
just need permission to fly VFR in there.

John Theune wrote:

You are confusing GA with VFR traffic. While some of those cities MAY
have controlled airspace to the ground, they do not ban GA. Even if
they have controlled airspace to the ground it may not prohibit VFR
traffic. Yes Class A requires IFR but if it's Class B or below then you
just need permission to fly VFR in there.


You are correct to clarify.
I was referring to VFR, which I believe is the subject of this thread,
but I accept your correction. At this point there is no Class B in
France - and until recently no Class C either. Class A is defined the
same (no VFR) but applied differently than in the US. It is used to
keep VFR traffic far from Paris.

It is very likely that JAA rules will bring European airspace closer to
the structure familiar to US pilots, and there will be more Class B and
C airspace - however I believe it is just as likely that cities like
Lyon (class C) will refuse access to most or all VFR.

GF

The voice of reason! --

"However, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a recreational pilot with decades of
experience, said he believes the skies are safe under the current
rules.

"We have very few accidents for an awful lot of traffic," he said.
"Every time you have an automobile accident, you're not going to go and
close the streets or prohibit people from driving." "


Emily wrote:
Front page of Yahoo right now, followed by, "A tragic small plane crash
brings to light a surprising fact."

It's truly saddening that everyone seems to be resorting to
anti-GA-speak. Why would a plane NOT be able to fly over New York? Was
there a rule I wasn't aware of? Does New York have a way of traffic
reporting that doesn't involved aircraft? Do they not allow helicopters
into downtown hospitals? I have no problem with the media reporting the
facts, but this makes me angry.

I also wonder about Asia - perhaps someone here knows.
In my post, I was not referring only to Europe, which is possibly the
most liberal part of "the rest of the world". I have traveled a fair
amount to Asia for my work, and I have never seen GA aircraft over the
cities (and this time I do mean GA - not just VFR). In fact, in China
one doesn't see any aircraft at all above the cities. In Indonesia I've
seen some airline traffic, but no GA. In Japan I do not recall seeing
any smaller planes above the cities, nor in South Korea (haven't been
to the "other" Korea). Does anyone here know what the rules are in
these places?

On 2006-10-13, wrote:
Well yes - It's the same as the US in that you must obey the
regulations where you are!!
When it's Class A all the way to the ground, then you may not fly there
VFR at all, but according to your definition you could call this "the
same" because you "must obey the airspace rules.

Since when did Class A become prohibited airspace? The original
assertion was that 'in Europe, light planes cannot fly over most large
cities', which is patently wrong. Manchester has a class D surface area.
Leeds has a class D surface area. Newcastle has a class D surface area.
So does Edinburgh and Glasgow. All major cities. So not only can you fly
a light plane over London (so long as you are IFR, and can meet the
minimum altitude rules which are the same as the US, and the rule that
also exists in the US about being able to make a forced landing without
endangering people on the ground) you can fly a light plane over all
other large cities in Britain VFR.

So the assertion that light planes cannot fly over most European cities
is incorrect.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

On 2006-10-13, wrote:
snip

You also have to remember, certainly in the US - many pilots simply
illegally fly over the cities (not being able to even remotely meet
14 CFR 91.119 (a)). It went on all the time in Houston. It's almost
impossible to use the I-10 corridor legally in any fixed wing plane much
bigger than a Cessna 150, and even then there were virtually no places
you could make a forced landing without causing undue hazard to people
or property on the ground.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

Greg Farris wrote:
"Why was a plane able to fly over New York?"

The question is not ridiculous.
Many cities in the world do not allow GA flight anywhere near, and many do
not allow commercial overflight either (usually for noise abatement
considerations). To allow it, one would have to submit that the risk to
benefit ratio is favorable.

Admittedly, the risk is not great - even trivial compared with the risk of
other activities related to individual freedoms (like driving cars and
trucks, which claim victims daily in NYC). This is the first GA crash into
a NYC skyscraper I'm aware of (correct me if I'm mistaken) and only the
second accidental crash of any plane into a NYC skyscraper. So, what's the
benefit? For airliners it's pretty obvious, with LaGuardia where it is, and
for GA - er, um.....

Don't get me wrong, I believe the freedom of an individual to experience
flight over New York is an important benefit, and I certainly hope the
corridors remain open, but seen from a political point of view... Imagine
the fallout if a second accident of this type were to occur within the next
year or so. Unlikely, perhaps, but certainly not impossible. That;s the
risk that someone like Bloomberg faces today, should he come forth and
defend the existance of VFR privileges.

Americans believe strongly in personal freedoms - many places in the world
(like almost all of Europe) do not even wait for one such incident to
banish small planes from their cities' skies. Individual freedoms are
simply not held in high enough esteem to make the combined risk and
nuisance factor worth it, even if both are small. The persistance of VFR
privileges over NYC (and I believe it will persist) will be a strong
affirmation of the American belief in individual freedoms.

"Live free or die" - isn't it, Skylune?

GF

...

I learned today that New York mayor Bloomberg is a "recreational pilot." I
guess that's different from the "amateur pilot" that Corey Lidle was,
according to the talking heads.

Bob Gardner

"Emily" wrote in message
. ..
Front page of Yahoo right now, followed by, "A tragic small plane crash
brings to light a surprising fact."

It's truly saddening that everyone seems to be resorting to anti-GA-speak.
Why would a plane NOT be able to fly over New York? Was there a rule I
wasn't aware of? Does New York have a way of traffic reporting that
doesn't involved aircraft? Do they not allow helicopters into downtown
hospitals? I have no problem with the media reporting the facts, but this
makes me angry.

Dylan Smith wrote:
So the assertion that light planes cannot fly over most European cities
is incorrect.


Indeed, I was referring to VFR, and became sloppy with terminology. A
clarification was proposed, which I accepted, and I do apologize for
any confusion caused. I felt, and still feel that VFR is the pertinent
issue in this thread, and in that respect the assertion that the
situation in Europe is comparable to that in the US is just as
incorrect. In fact, the only European cities that compare to New York
in size do not allow VFR operations.

GF

Paris for sure is Class A to the ground.


The IFR approach (for small airplanes) for Toussous-les-Nobles leads
right across the Eiffel tower and ends near Versailles...

The center of Berlin is a restricted area after an ultralight pilot
commited suicide with his plane on the lawn in front of what amounts to
the German version of the House of Congress. The f***ing self-centered
idiot...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)