Tailwheel endorsement

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 10:40:32 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:

In article , Robert M.
Gary wrote:
I certainly hope you are not teaching your students to look to one side
when full stall/three point landing a taildragger.

I find that being able to see the ground is helpful. Have you ever
flown a J-3, Stearman, etc...?

You don't have to look to one side to see the ground unless you have
a medical condition that stops your peripheral vision from working.

Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

I have some stick time in a Waco UPF-7, which I've flown from the
front seat only. My experience is that once the airplane flares, not
only do you not see the ground or runway anymore, you don't even see
the airport.

The round engine up front wipes out any forward vision and the wing
below masks nearly the entire airport. The only way to see would be
to hang your head out the cockpit, but I'm not allowed to do that
because the owner behind me needs to have my head out of the way to
see.

Corky Scott

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
Well, I am not looking to the side when I land the Cub (Super Cub,
Husky, Great Lakes). Seems to me it's done with peripheral vision.

Of course, the fields in New England are mostly bordered by pine
trees. I admit this was much more of a challenge when I had to do it
in Arizona (Super Cub, Great Lakes). But I still don't think I
actually turned my head and looked to the side.

Your right, and perhaps I didn't describe it correctly. In the J-3
(the Super Cub is different because you are in the front seat) I
"crane" my head to the side but look forward around the cylinders on
the side. So I'm looking forward, but my head to hanging around the
side.

Dylan Smith wrote in message ...

You don't have to look to one side to see the ground unless you have
a medical condition that stops your peripheral vision from working.

I like to see what is in front of my (at least on that one side). I
also usually land to the side of the center line.

I
"crane" my head to the side but look forward around the cylinders on
the side. So I'm looking forward, but my head to hanging around the
side.

I suppose this is one reason I like to slip it in. You get to see the
runway that way.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

If you use the "look to the side method", how do you correct for drift?
How far away from the aircraft do you look?
Do you look at the upwind or downwind side?

Hi Cub Driver


And in the Cub, the instructor is usually in the front seat.


Well, that would be in the J-3, which I think I've seen one of up here. But
there's lots of 11's, 12's and 18's, all of which the instructor sits in the
back.

And believe me, one place you don't want to be for very long in the winter
time in Alaska, is in the back seat of a Cub. No matter how good the heater
is, (which they usually aren't), the planes are sealed so poorly that
there's always cold air blowing in from everywhere. The guy in the front
seat never notices it, seems all the cold air comes in through the back
area.

This is even the case in the newer built models, the ones that have been
rebuilt, and the brand new Husky's from Aviat.

You should see me sitting back there in my Parka, Fat-Boy pants, gloves and
Sorels trying to keep warm. Actually, now that you bring it up.

PJ


===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they
never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who
did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

Harvey Plourde addresses this in "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot". He
sketches the scene where the typical checkout ends with the instructor
saying something like "You get the idea; practice it some time when
there's no cross-wind," signing the endorsement, then moving to
another state or changing his name.

He also notes that it may be some comfort to the student who is
sweating out his first wheelie to know that the instructor is even
more terrified. (It is, after all, the instructor's insurance policy
that is on the line. And in the Cub, the instructor is usually in the
front seat. I often wondered what it is like to teach somebody you
can't see! Shucks, the student could have fainted, for all the
instructor knows.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Congrats! I've been working on my TW endorsement in a SuperCub and the only
thing left to work on is crosswinds. We've been waiting for some decent but
not insane crosswinds here lately and so far it's been either nothing or
20-40. But man what a blast!!! Went up Sunday and practiced wheel
landings, first one I botched bad and learned why not to try to save it, add
power and go around ! Second and third ones I nailed. Then it was on to
short and soft field TO/L's, the SuperCub goes up like an elevator! So far
I've got 7 1/2 hours and 34 TO/L's.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

pj

I've been down this rabbit trail before.

There are those who swear by three point and those who 'swear' by
wheels first.

I'll agree there are times when one or the other are 'best' but since
I started in the three point group I find it more comfortable and
safer from my experience and therefore have talked and taught it for
many years with good success both to myself and those I have taught or
converted G.

As an example, on my CFI check ride, I touched down three point with
full up elevator, full left aileron and full right rudder in a Super
Cub in a 30 MPH cross wind. Following this one landing the FAA check
pilot took the controls and spent the rest of the flight instructing
me how he expected a student to fly on his check ride for PP.

I am not sure the average pilot could have made a wheel landing in a
Super Cub in the conditions that existed that day. (At that time I
could fly the box a bird came in G)

Would love to get a tail wheel bird and fly around the back woods of
Alaska like some of my friends who were stationed in Alaska did but
time marches on.

So, you teach your wheels and I'll go with the three point and we can
argue at the bar.

Big John

Looking back, my going with three point probably goes back to my
Primary Instructor in the PT-19. I could make the smoothest tail low
wheel landings you ever would want . He said that he would wash me out
if I didn't' make three point landings. I then made three 'Navy'
landings from about three feet in the air and he soloed me and have
made three pointers ever since except in the C-45 and on occasion in a
few other birds.

I think he had to go to the dentist after those three landings, solid
to say the least and never bounced. G



On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:39:09 -0800, "PJ" pj at offairport dot com
wrote:

Hi Big John,

Please understand, this is not an attack on your abilities as a tailwheel
pilot. I merely observed something in your post that I've seen many times
before so I used it to bring up a few points about 'tailwheel training'.

You said;


You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally.


If I'm interpreting your message correctly, I suppose this was in reference
to the fact that you said,


"Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area in
south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip. Only shot a
couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot some."


The points I were making in my original post we

#1 He was (according to your message) signed off prior to ever having done
any wheel landings.
#2 When he finally did do wheel landings, he only did two. (Just to say, "he
had shot some".)
#3 Simply satisfying the FAR is just the bare minimum required for sign off.

These points substantiate my views posted previously, about so many
tailwheel pilots being signed off having no or very little training in wheel
landings. The FAR's say they have to 'show proficiency' prior to the
endorsement.

As for the float flying, you never push the stick/yoke forward while
landing. I'm sure you know that and I'm not exactly sure what your point was
with that comment. And if you compare it to .landing a tailwheel, it's more
like doing a wheel as opposed to a 3 point landing.

As for the Alaska pilots, I can only speak from my own personal experience.
I fly Part 135 in Alaska, mostly 185's and Beaver's. I Instruct for fun (on
the side - when I'm in the mood) in mostly Super Cub's, Citabria's and
140's, sometimes the 185. I personally do wheel landings most of the time.
This includes landings on snow, glaciers, ridges, river bars and in and out
of short 600 foot strips, what ever. It's really very rare that I'll do a 3
point landing. It seems that 'most' pilots that I work with up here also do
wheel landings most of the time. But that's not to say that there's not
people who do mostly 3 point landings. It's just my experience that with my
flying and watching all the other pilots I see in my area, that the wheel
landings are the most often used.

There are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both types of landings,
and we could argue them all day long. Personally, I like wheel landings,
they work for me and I've never had and accident doing them.

If you ever get up to Alaska, drop me a note and I'll show you around.
PJ

===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
PJ

Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I
made originally.

Comment on landings.

Wheel landings.

Two basic types of wheel landings.

1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it
on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the
ground and the tail way up in the air.

If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not
long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing.

As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a
three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a
cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month
with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings..

2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail
low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the
back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll
down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control.

Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point.

Three point landing.

Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce
back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not
applied correctly.

During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back
all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps
prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings).

I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my
years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft.

errata

If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to
touch down in a tail low attitude?

My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three
point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had.

I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment
on wheel landings in AK?

Big John


On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com
wrote:

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR
61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy
in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal
and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures
in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they
never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who
did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice
to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel
what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

Hi again John,

It seems to me that you have turned this into an argument of whether we as
instructors should be teaching 3 point or wheel landings. That was NEVER my
point nor my intentions.

My point, as I've attempted to explain twice before, is that we as
instructors must follow the FARs and teach BOTH 3 point AND wheel landings
BEFORE ever signing off a tailwheel endorsement.

When I said 'I prefer wheel landings, I never said I didn't teach 3 point
landings. I was simply responding to your comment about 'wondering what
pilots in Alaska thought about wheel landings".

You go ahead and teach your 3 point and I will continue teaching both.

That is all.
PJ

--
===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
...
pj

I've been down this rabbit trail before.

There are those who swear by three point and those who 'swear' by
wheels first.

I'll agree there are times when one or the other are 'best' but since
I started in the three point group I find it more comfortable and
safer from my experience and therefore have talked and taught it for
many years with good success both to myself and those I have taught or
converted G.

As an example, on my CFI check ride, I touched down three point with
full up elevator, full left aileron and full right rudder in a Super
Cub in a 30 MPH cross wind. Following this one landing the FAA check
pilot took the controls and spent the rest of the flight instructing
me how he expected a student to fly on his check ride for PP.

I am not sure the average pilot could have made a wheel landing in a
Super Cub in the conditions that existed that day. (At that time I
could fly the box a bird came in G)

Would love to get a tail wheel bird and fly around the back woods of
Alaska like some of my friends who were stationed in Alaska did but
time marches on.

So, you teach your wheels and I'll go with the three point and we can
argue at the bar.

Big John

Looking back, my going with three point probably goes back to my
Primary Instructor in the PT-19. I could make the smoothest tail low
wheel landings you ever would want . He said that he would wash me out
if I didn't' make three point landings. I then made three 'Navy'
landings from about three feet in the air and he soloed me and have
made three pointers ever since except in the C-45 and on occasion in a
few other birds.

I think he had to go to the dentist after those three landings, solid
to say the least and never bounced. G



On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:39:09 -0800, "PJ" pj at offairport dot com
wrote:

Hi Big John,

Please understand, this is not an attack on your abilities as a tailwheel
pilot. I merely observed something in your post that I've seen many times
before so I used it to bring up a few points about 'tailwheel training'.

You said;


You clipped in your post the wheel comment I made originally.


If I'm interpreting your message correctly, I suppose this was in
reference
to the fact that you said,


"Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area in
south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip. Only shot a
couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot some."


The points I were making in my original post we

#1 He was (according to your message) signed off prior to ever having
done
any wheel landings.
#2 When he finally did do wheel landings, he only did two. (Just to say,
"he
had shot some".)
#3 Simply satisfying the FAR is just the bare minimum required for sign
off.

These points substantiate my views posted previously, about so many
tailwheel pilots being signed off having no or very little training in
wheel
landings. The FAR's say they have to 'show proficiency' prior to the
endorsement.

As for the float flying, you never push the stick/yoke forward while
landing. I'm sure you know that and I'm not exactly sure what your point
was
with that comment. And if you compare it to .landing a tailwheel, it's
more
like doing a wheel as opposed to a 3 point landing.

As for the Alaska pilots, I can only speak from my own personal
experience.
I fly Part 135 in Alaska, mostly 185's and Beaver's. I Instruct for fun
(on
the side - when I'm in the mood) in mostly Super Cub's, Citabria's and
140's, sometimes the 185. I personally do wheel landings most of the
time.
This includes landings on snow, glaciers, ridges, river bars and in and
out
of short 600 foot strips, what ever. It's really very rare that I'll do
a 3
point landing. It seems that 'most' pilots that I work with up here also
do
wheel landings most of the time. But that's not to say that there's not
people who do mostly 3 point landings. It's just my experience that with
my
flying and watching all the other pilots I see in my area, that the wheel
landings are the most often used.

There are obvious advantages and disadvantages of both types of landings,
and we could argue them all day long. Personally, I like wheel landings,
they work for me and I've never had and accident doing them.

If you ever get up to Alaska, drop me a note and I'll show you around.
PJ

===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
PJ

Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I
made originally.

Comment on landings.

Wheel landings.

Two basic types of wheel landings.

1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it
on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the
ground and the tail way up in the air.

If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not
long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing.

As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a
three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a
cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month
with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings..

2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail
low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the
back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll
down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control.

Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point.

Three point landing.

Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce
back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not
applied correctly.

During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back
all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps
prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings).

I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my
years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft.

errata

If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to
touch down in a tail low attitude?

My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three
point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had.

I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment
on wheel landings in AK?

Big John


On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com
wrote:

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph
cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR
61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show
profiecncy
in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate
normal
and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around
procedures
in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they
never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who
did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a
disservice
to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best
we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel
what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what
are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

"Jim" writes:

Congrats! I've been working on my TW endorsement in a SuperCub and the only
thing left to work on is crosswinds.

And congrats to you...but I must say, that's sort of like saying "I'm
working on my PPL and the only thing left is solo."