Fatal glider/tow plane accident, France

pfb wrote:

On May 7, 10:35*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2012 7:06:22 AM UTC-6, Sean F2 wrote:
What happened in TN?

http://www.t-g.com/story/1845882.html

Pilot surname is Miller, erroneously reported as Smith.

The old "low and slow" thing once again.

Interesting that the pilot of the glider that was spinning when it hit
the ground has survived, whereas the pilot who stopped the spin did
not. (I am not talking of a marginal difference in outcome here).
Maybe if you are too low to recover from the ensuing dive it is better
to hold the spin.

I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


At 22:23 09 May 2012, Gilbert Smith wrote:
pfb wrote:

On May 7, 10:35�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2012 7:06:22 AM UTC-6, Sean F2 wrote:
What happened in TN?

http://www.t-g.com/story/1845882.html

Pilot surname is Miller, erroneously reported as Smith.

The old "low and slow" thing once again.

Interesting that the pilot of the glider that was spinning when it hit
the ground has survived, whereas the pilot who stopped the spin did
not. (I am not talking of a marginal difference in outcome here).
Maybe if you are too low to recover from the ensuing dive it is better
to hold the spin.

Chris Nicholas wrote:

I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


At 22:23 09 May 2012, Gilbert Smith wrote:
pfb wrote:

On May 7, 10:35�pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2012 7:06:22 AM UTC-6, Sean F2 wrote:
What happened in TN?

http://www.t-g.com/story/1845882.html

Pilot surname is Miller, erroneously reported as Smith.

The old "low and slow" thing once again.

Interesting that the pilot of the glider that was spinning when it hit
the ground has survived, whereas the pilot who stopped the spin did
not. (I am not talking of a marginal difference in outcome here).
Maybe if you are too low to recover from the ensuing dive it is better
to hold the spin.


I fear that my question may be academic, because a pilot who is
experienced enough to make this call will most likely not get into the
situation in the first place.

My CFI's response was the same as yours - keep the glider flying no
matter what lies ahead.

Gilbert.

At 22:55 09 May 2012, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts
to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first
absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have
known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to
the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


There is absolutely no doubt that the chances of survival are greater if
the aircraft hits the ground in a full spin rather than a partially
recovered one. This is is why I have always said that teaching spin
recovery will do nothig to save one from harm in the most common spins,
final turns and launch failures. Teaching people to recognise and recover
BEFORE the spin occurs is much more valuable and will save you.

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:45:42 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
On May 9, 3:53*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Glad the guy in Tennessee survived and perhaps as previously stated we
can learn something from him when he recovers and responds. I remember
getting off tow in 800 FPM of sink (3000 foot tow) and intuitively knew
not to stray too far from the airport. *In about 3 minutes I found
myself at pattern altitude at the IP, downwind, descending as if I had
the spoilers deployed. *I maintained good airspeed, turned a close base
and final and didn't deploy the spoilers until I was right over the end
of the runway. *Never experienced a gravity storm like that before,
haven't experienced one since. *Bottom line is *that sometimes things
happen and while they are not completely beyond our control, they can be
difficult to overcome. *I was lucky considering my lack of experience at
the time. Experience is the great teacher, one can only hope to live
long enough and fly long enough to gain a level of experience that will
keep us out of trouble. *What I have learned thus far is that low and
slow in the pattern is not good.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Heavy sink in the pattern is SOP for mountain flying. I try hard to
get pilots to keep the vario in their scan while in the pattern.
Sounds like you did.

Sometimes it works the other way. I rode around a pattern with a
student who didn't notice the vario was pegged up! We entered the
pattern at 800' AGL but when he rolled out on final he was 2000' AGL
where he finally decided the pattern wasn't going to work. I told him
to glide back to the IP and start over. After that, he kept the vario
in his scan.

It seems every year someone (or several someones) wind up landing
short. Often it's an airplane pilot with a glider "add-on" who is
subconsciously treating spoilers like 'set and forget' flaps on a
Cessna - and then flying a Cessna pattern. I've had to take the
controls many times in this situation.

I never look at the vario (or altimeter) in the pattern. The only instrument you need to scan is the ASI. You should easily recognize strong sink or lift in the pattern without the vario. In fact, you shouldn't think in terms of sink or lift, but in terms of your angle relative to your planned touch down. If your angle getting too low faster than you expect - close spoilers or abbreviate the pattern, if it is increasing than open spoilers, extend the pattern or put it in a slip.

Ramy

On 5/10/2012 3:39 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:55 09 May 2012, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts
to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first
absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have
known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to
the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


There is absolutely no doubt that the chances of survival are greater if
the aircraft hits the ground in a full spin rather than a partially
recovered one. This is is why I have always said that teaching spin
recovery will do nothig to save one from harm in the most common spins,
final turns and launch failures. Teaching people to recognise and recover
BEFORE the spin occurs is much more valuable and will save you.


Being a simple-minded kind of guy, I like to keep things simple (KISS),
especially fundamental aspects of our sport. Using ground contact as an example...

If you're going to hit the ground, hit it as horizontally as possible. Under
control is nice, too, but - if survival is high on Joe Pilot's wish list -
being under control is more of an option than the verticality of ground
contact is.

Bob - Duh :-) - W.

On May 7, 7:44*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, May 7, 2012 7:06:22 AM UTC-6, Sean F2 wrote:
What happened in TN?

http://www.t-g.com/story/1845882.html

I've read the newspaper accounts and saw the pictures.. scary.
I also tried to research for a club in the area, but nothing shows up
on the SSA Where to Fly pages. The two TN clubs that do show are far
away.

Is there an SSA club there? Looks like a nice place to retire at.
T

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:31:05 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 5/10/2012 3:39 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:55 09 May 2012, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts
to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first
absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have
known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to
the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


There is absolutely no doubt that the chances of survival are greater if
the aircraft hits the ground in a full spin rather than a partially
recovered one. This is is why I have always said that teaching spin
recovery will do nothig to save one from harm in the most common spins,
final turns and launch failures. Teaching people to recognise and recover
BEFORE the spin occurs is much more valuable and will save you.


Being a simple-minded kind of guy, I like to keep things simple (KISS),
especially fundamental aspects of our sport. Using ground contact as an example...

If you're going to hit the ground, hit it as horizontally as possible. Under
control is nice, too, but - if survival is high on Joe Pilot's wish list -
being under control is more of an option than the verticality of ground
contact is.

Bob - Duh :-) - W.

Better than just horizontal - if you are going to crash, try hit with the wing first. The wing will observe energy and may save your life.
Easy said than done though.

Ramy

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 3:49:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The way I read it (and there are conflicting reports) the two-place glider, with one instructor and another pilot (both Air France pilots) on board, was in the process of taking an auto launch when it collided with a Pawnee returning from a tow. Altitude is given as 200 meters but one commenter thinks they might have confused feet with meters, which sounds plausible. The Pawnee pilot and both glider pilots were killed. The Pawnee had collision avoidance equipment (FLARM) but the glider did not. Fred

Any new info on this tragic accident in France which claimed 3 lives? In particular, will be helpful to get a confirmation on the Flarm situation, and if radios were used.

Ramy

Ramy wrote:

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:31:05 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
On 5/10/2012 3:39 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 22:55 09 May 2012, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I suspect that this is because the spin recovery involves more nose down
than when in the spin, and higher forward speed when the recovery starts
to
bite, so a greater vertical component. In addition, hitting the ground
spinning often (if not always) means that the wing that hits first
absorbs
some energy.

This is anecdotal and not a representative survey perhaps, but I have
known
at least two people in my club who survived low level spins without
recovery and none who were fatally injured thus.

I have known at least one who died having initiated recovery from a spin,
and none who survived when hitting the ground in the recovery.

Better still, of course, is not to spin low down. Fly it all the way to
the
crash if short of energy.

Chris N.


There is absolutely no doubt that the chances of survival are greater if
the aircraft hits the ground in a full spin rather than a partially
recovered one. This is is why I have always said that teaching spin
recovery will do nothig to save one from harm in the most common spins,
final turns and launch failures. Teaching people to recognise and recover
BEFORE the spin occurs is much more valuable and will save you.


Being a simple-minded kind of guy, I like to keep things simple (KISS),
especially fundamental aspects of our sport. Using ground contact as an example...

If you're going to hit the ground, hit it as horizontally as possible. Under
control is nice, too, but - if survival is high on Joe Pilot's wish list -
being under control is more of an option than the verticality of ground
contact is.

Bob - Duh :-) - W.

Better than just horizontal - if you are going to crash, try hit with the wing first. The wing will observe energy and may save your life.
Was that "absorb" ?
Easy said than done though.

Ramy