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#31
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Time to earn license for professionals
Larry Dighera:
1. JFK Jr. chose a similar course of instruction for similar reasons. His case bears grim testament to it's effectiveness. I agree with all about hit-and-miss training, but JFK Jr's grim story is not a testament to the effectiveness of his course of instruction. If he'd gotten his ticket in 3 months and 60 hours of consistent training, that wouldn't have necessarily made him, or *anyone*, any more or less apt to make better decisions, as evidenced by people with far more consistent training and ratings than JFK Jr that have suffered equally grim results from such decisions. |
#32
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Time to earn license for professionals
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#34
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Time to earn license for professionals
"Gig 601XL Builder":
On top of that I'll bet (and I have nothing to back this up) the drop out rate for pilots that spread training over a long period of time is probably higher. And God knows we hate to loose somebody that wants to fly bad enough to start the process. Our flight school encouraged people to fly often/consistently and complete their goal(s), and counseled people who spread flights apart by more than a week -- aside from skill/proficiency, many CFIs don't stay at these schools more than a few months (they build the hours they need and then they're gone). But few such endeavors have a 100% completion rate, and dropouts are not always a failure on anyone's part. Sometimes as the training progresses, it just becomes clear that it's going to take more time, dedication and money than the person initially thought, and he/she realizes it isn't something they want or need that bad or is cut out to do. Sometimes it's a common sense, realistic, prudent decision. |
#35
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Time to earn license for professionals
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news:h62dnYU0n_ : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news Bob Moore wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote The first thing new instructors have to be taught as they become instructors is that there are base differences between teaching in a classroom that isn't moving and teaching in a classroom that is moving at 100 mph plus. This is what is wrong with most flight instruction. A professional Flight Instructor does not teach in a 100 mph classroom. Done properly, ALL instruction is done in the classroom (briefing room) and then the student is allowed to practice in the airplane. My qualifications...first, the US Navy sent me to a two month "How to Instruct" course. I would then teach that course for two years. Second, I received my FAA Flight Instructor Certificate in a professional Part 141 Training Center. Third, I completed an FAA approved Part 121 Airline Flight Instructor Training Program. I would later, as Mgr Flightcrew Training, be responsible for developing and implementing such programs at other airlines. Fourth, I did manage a staff of about 8 instructors in the Jet Training Division of the old Burnside-Ott Flight Training Center at Opaloca Airport in Miami. Bob Moore Is there anything about the following sentence taken from an earlier post of mine in this thread that you are having trouble understanding? Dudley Henriques wrote; "Many instructors in my opinion make a HUGE mistake by trying to teach everything about everything while the student is flying the airplane. " Of COURSE a flight instructor teaches in a 100mph plus classroom, and in even faster classrooms in higher performance aircraft. This in no way should be construed as you have attempted to do here into meaning that a flight instructor should use the time in the aircraft to teach what should have been covered on the ground both during the preflight and post flight phases of a dual session. There is a place for detailed instruction and that is NOT while the student is under the stress of flying the aircraft. Your premise that ALL instruction is done in the classroom and allowing the student to "practice" in the aircraft is not exactly correct. It is more correct that theory and procedure are taught on the ground and closely monitored and corrected practice with the student is done in the air. To say that no instruction is performed in the air is incorrect. It is however correct to say that all instruction in the air be restricted to it's simplest common denominator, allowing the student to error and correct with verbal guidance. It is during the post flight debrief that the more detailed instruction should take place. To address your basic premise, I believe you might want to re-read what I have said in this thread about what constitutes proper flight instruction technique. With a few minor changes, we are not that far apart, but make no mistake, flight instruction does indeed take place in a moving classroom. Ground instruction takes place in a classroom. Ever heard the one about the three blind men examining an elephant? Bertie Hi Bertie; howgozit? Hope you're well these days. not too bad, thanks. I agree. Much of it is in perspective. I think all of us are approaching the basic premise from different directions. The macro is intact but the micros are in flux :-) Well, exactly. I agree with your stance though. The airplane is a classroom in itself. A good airplane is a better instructor than the instructor is. but the point i think you are trying to make is that while the student is practicing whatever, you gotta shout some additional instruction his way. Otherwise dual would be pointless. after all, if he goes out and practices it all wrong after his thorough classroom briefing what's he learned? Bertie Exactly! I think the main point if you were to reduce everything down to it's lowest common denominator would be that there are actually two teaching personas that the CFI has to master; the first is the teacher who covers what needs to be covered on the ground in the manner best suited for that scenario (this would be the classroom approach). The second is a teaching personna that knows how to simplify, observe ,direct and correct with minimal interference while the airplane is in motion. This second teaching personna is what we usually have to "teach" people coming into the flight instruction business from a formal professional teaching background. It's usually a quick transition if the "teacher" is amenable and able to adjust to this added dimension required of a good flight instructor. I totally agree with you that the airplane itself is the best flight instructor a pilot will ever have. Well, unless t's a cherokee! Bertie Well...there's always room for a "driving instructor". :-)))) Unfortunately, we're living with the Cherokee's children now. Having said that, it was the best workhouse of that bunch, and it was damn near bulletproof. You must have know Albie Cornell. I flew a few of his for a while. He had the highest time PA 28 in the world at the time. (I think it was 4625L) Damn thing would lift anything you could squeeze into it out of a 1500 foot strip and hardly ever needed fixing.. Bertie I used to have fits "reteaching" people who learned to fly in Cherokees when they came in to us for checkouts in our tail wheel airplanes. Even checking out someone in a 150 required some degree of "rudder rehab" :-) I vaguely recall Albie Cornell but for the life of me I can't associate it with one of our surrounding fields. I take it he operated a small strip? I'm thinking New Jersey but not at all sure. You're right about the 28's lifting capacity, especially the pre-Warrior Hershey Bars. We had several on the line but I always favored the 150/152 for primary instruction for the reasons we have been discussing. :-) Yeah, the Cessnas were at least a bit better. Albie's field was Warrington PA, just north of Willow Grove NAS. He was there for a loooong time. The field is gone now, but if oyu look at a low level instrument chart, you'll find Albie intersection where it used to be.. Bertie |
#36
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Time to earn license for professionals
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news:h62dnYU0n_ : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news Bob Moore wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote The first thing new instructors have to be taught as they become instructors is that there are base differences between teaching in a classroom that isn't moving and teaching in a classroom that is moving at 100 mph plus. This is what is wrong with most flight instruction. A professional Flight Instructor does not teach in a 100 mph classroom. Done properly, ALL instruction is done in the classroom (briefing room) and then the student is allowed to practice in the airplane. My qualifications...first, the US Navy sent me to a two month "How to Instruct" course. I would then teach that course for two years. Second, I received my FAA Flight Instructor Certificate in a professional Part 141 Training Center. Third, I completed an FAA approved Part 121 Airline Flight Instructor Training Program. I would later, as Mgr Flightcrew Training, be responsible for developing and implementing such programs at other airlines. Fourth, I did manage a staff of about 8 instructors in the Jet Training Division of the old Burnside-Ott Flight Training Center at Opaloca Airport in Miami. Bob Moore Is there anything about the following sentence taken from an earlier post of mine in this thread that you are having trouble understanding? Dudley Henriques wrote; "Many instructors in my opinion make a HUGE mistake by trying to teach everything about everything while the student is flying the airplane. " Of COURSE a flight instructor teaches in a 100mph plus classroom, and in even faster classrooms in higher performance aircraft. This in no way should be construed as you have attempted to do here into meaning that a flight instructor should use the time in the aircraft to teach what should have been covered on the ground both during the preflight and post flight phases of a dual session. There is a place for detailed instruction and that is NOT while the student is under the stress of flying the aircraft. Your premise that ALL instruction is done in the classroom and allowing the student to "practice" in the aircraft is not exactly correct. It is more correct that theory and procedure are taught on the ground and closely monitored and corrected practice with the student is done in the air. To say that no instruction is performed in the air is incorrect. It is however correct to say that all instruction in the air be restricted to it's simplest common denominator, allowing the student to error and correct with verbal guidance. It is during the post flight debrief that the more detailed instruction should take place. To address your basic premise, I believe you might want to re-read what I have said in this thread about what constitutes proper flight instruction technique. With a few minor changes, we are not that far apart, but make no mistake, flight instruction does indeed take place in a moving classroom. Ground instruction takes place in a classroom. Ever heard the one about the three blind men examining an elephant? Bertie Hi Bertie; howgozit? Hope you're well these days. not too bad, thanks. I agree. Much of it is in perspective. I think all of us are approaching the basic premise from different directions. The macro is intact but the micros are in flux :-) Well, exactly. I agree with your stance though. The airplane is a classroom in itself. A good airplane is a better instructor than the instructor is. but the point i think you are trying to make is that while the student is practicing whatever, you gotta shout some additional instruction his way. Otherwise dual would be pointless. after all, if he goes out and practices it all wrong after his thorough classroom briefing what's he learned? Bertie Exactly! I think the main point if you were to reduce everything down to it's lowest common denominator would be that there are actually two teaching personas that the CFI has to master; the first is the teacher who covers what needs to be covered on the ground in the manner best suited for that scenario (this would be the classroom approach). The second is a teaching personna that knows how to simplify, observe ,direct and correct with minimal interference while the airplane is in motion. This second teaching personna is what we usually have to "teach" people coming into the flight instruction business from a formal professional teaching background. It's usually a quick transition if the "teacher" is amenable and able to adjust to this added dimension required of a good flight instructor. I totally agree with you that the airplane itself is the best flight instructor a pilot will ever have. Well, unless t's a cherokee! Bertie Well...there's always room for a "driving instructor". :-)))) Unfortunately, we're living with the Cherokee's children now. Having said that, it was the best workhouse of that bunch, and it was damn near bulletproof. You must have know Albie Cornell. I flew a few of his for a while. He had the highest time PA 28 in the world at the time. (I think it was 4625L) Damn thing would lift anything you could squeeze into it out of a 1500 foot strip and hardly ever needed fixing.. Bertie I used to have fits "reteaching" people who learned to fly in Cherokees when they came in to us for checkouts in our tail wheel airplanes. Even checking out someone in a 150 required some degree of "rudder rehab" :-) I vaguely recall Albie Cornell but for the life of me I can't associate it with one of our surrounding fields. I take it he operated a small strip? I'm thinking New Jersey but not at all sure. You're right about the 28's lifting capacity, especially the pre-Warrior Hershey Bars. We had several on the line but I always favored the 150/152 for primary instruction for the reasons we have been discussing. :-) Yeah, the Cessnas were at least a bit better. Albie's field was Warrington PA, just north of Willow Grove NAS. He was there for a loooong time. The field is gone now, but if oyu look at a low level instrument chart, you'll find Albie intersection where it used to be.. Bertie I think I remember him vaguely. I managed Hi Line Airport for Ed Size for a while. We were right next door to Art Turner's place. -- Dudley Henriques |
#37
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Time to earn license for professionals
Dudley Henriques wrote in
: Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news:h62dnYU0n_ : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in : Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote in news Bob Moore wrote: Dudley Henriques wrote The first thing new instructors have to be taught as they become instructors is that there are base differences between teaching in a classroom that isn't moving and teaching in a classroom that is moving at 100 mph plus. This is what is wrong with most flight instruction. A professional Flight Instructor does not teach in a 100 mph classroom. Done properly, ALL instruction is done in the classroom (briefing room) and then the student is allowed to practice in the airplane. My qualifications...first, the US Navy sent me to a two month "How to Instruct" course. I would then teach that course for two years. Second, I received my FAA Flight Instructor Certificate in a professional Part 141 Training Center. Third, I completed an FAA approved Part 121 Airline Flight Instructor Training Program. I would later, as Mgr Flightcrew Training, be responsible for developing and implementing such programs at other airlines. Fourth, I did manage a staff of about 8 instructors in the Jet Training Division of the old Burnside-Ott Flight Training Center at Opaloca Airport in Miami. Bob Moore Is there anything about the following sentence taken from an earlier post of mine in this thread that you are having trouble understanding? Dudley Henriques wrote; "Many instructors in my opinion make a HUGE mistake by trying to teach everything about everything while the student is flying the airplane. " Of COURSE a flight instructor teaches in a 100mph plus classroom, and in even faster classrooms in higher performance aircraft. This in no way should be construed as you have attempted to do here into meaning that a flight instructor should use the time in the aircraft to teach what should have been covered on the ground both during the preflight and post flight phases of a dual session. There is a place for detailed instruction and that is NOT while the student is under the stress of flying the aircraft. Your premise that ALL instruction is done in the classroom and allowing the student to "practice" in the aircraft is not exactly correct. It is more correct that theory and procedure are taught on the ground and closely monitored and corrected practice with the student is done in the air. To say that no instruction is performed in the air is incorrect. It is however correct to say that all instruction in the air be restricted to it's simplest common denominator, allowing the student to error and correct with verbal guidance. It is during the post flight debrief that the more detailed instruction should take place. To address your basic premise, I believe you might want to re-read what I have said in this thread about what constitutes proper flight instruction technique. With a few minor changes, we are not that far apart, but make no mistake, flight instruction does indeed take place in a moving classroom. Ground instruction takes place in a classroom. Ever heard the one about the three blind men examining an elephant? Bertie Hi Bertie; howgozit? Hope you're well these days. not too bad, thanks. I agree. Much of it is in perspective. I think all of us are approaching the basic premise from different directions. The macro is intact but the micros are in flux :-) Well, exactly. I agree with your stance though. The airplane is a classroom in itself. A good airplane is a better instructor than the instructor is. but the point i think you are trying to make is that while the student is practicing whatever, you gotta shout some additional instruction his way. Otherwise dual would be pointless. after all, if he goes out and practices it all wrong after his thorough classroom briefing what's he learned? Bertie Exactly! I think the main point if you were to reduce everything down to it's lowest common denominator would be that there are actually two teaching personas that the CFI has to master; the first is the teacher who covers what needs to be covered on the ground in the manner best suited for that scenario (this would be the classroom approach). The second is a teaching personna that knows how to simplify, observe ,direct and correct with minimal interference while the airplane is in motion. This second teaching personna is what we usually have to "teach" people coming into the flight instruction business from a formal professional teaching background. It's usually a quick transition if the "teacher" is amenable and able to adjust to this added dimension required of a good flight instructor. I totally agree with you that the airplane itself is the best flight instructor a pilot will ever have. Well, unless t's a cherokee! Bertie Well...there's always room for a "driving instructor". :-)))) Unfortunately, we're living with the Cherokee's children now. Having said that, it was the best workhouse of that bunch, and it was damn near bulletproof. You must have know Albie Cornell. I flew a few of his for a while. He had the highest time PA 28 in the world at the time. (I think it was 4625L) Damn thing would lift anything you could squeeze into it out of a 1500 foot strip and hardly ever needed fixing.. Bertie I used to have fits "reteaching" people who learned to fly in Cherokees when they came in to us for checkouts in our tail wheel airplanes. Even checking out someone in a 150 required some degree of "rudder rehab" :-) I vaguely recall Albie Cornell but for the life of me I can't associate it with one of our surrounding fields. I take it he operated a small strip? I'm thinking New Jersey but not at all sure. You're right about the 28's lifting capacity, especially the pre-Warrior Hershey Bars. We had several on the line but I always favored the 150/152 for primary instruction for the reasons we have been discussing. :-) Yeah, the Cessnas were at least a bit better. Albie's field was Warrington PA, just north of Willow Grove NAS. He was there for a loooong time. The field is gone now, but if oyu look at a low level instrument chart, you'll find Albie intersection where it used to be.. Bertie I think I remember him vaguely. I managed Hi Line Airport for Ed Size for a while. We were right next door to Art Turner's place. He was a local fixture for almost fifty years there. He didn't wander from from the place much himself. He was a noted character and well thought of. They just don't make 'em like that anymore.. Bertie |
#38
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Time to earn license for professionals
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yeah, you're right. As these guys die off the world will never see the likes of them again. I really miss the good ole' common sense people we had in aviation way back when. -- Dudley Henriques |
#39
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Time to earn license for professionals
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... RST Engineering wrote: Sorry, Dudley, I got my CFI (airplane) 37 years ago and my CFI (glider) 30 years ago. I have roughly 500 primary students under my belt, so no, I know for a fact that the classroom on the ground and the classroom in the air are two totally different things. My point was that I've learned to adapt to many different learning capabilities in both environments. Jim I can see there is absolutely nothing you can learn from me so I'll be moving along :-)) Or anybody else, apparently. |
#40
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Time to earn license for professionals
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... RST Engineering wrote: Sorry, Dudley, I got my CFI (airplane) 37 years ago and my CFI (glider) 30 years ago. I have roughly 500 primary students under my belt, so no, I know for a fact that the classroom on the ground and the classroom in the air are two totally different things. My point was that I've learned to adapt to many different learning capabilities in both environments. Jim I can see there is absolutely nothing you can learn from me so I'll be moving along :-)) Or anybody else, apparently. I'm not quite sure I understand this remark. Could you possibly be more explicit? Thank you -- Dudley Henriques |
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