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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
*********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better. It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a two stage Griffon. Germany: Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in non essential so I've added the column 'might have' Essential: Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill 1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98 atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph. The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed better with superior fuel. Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses. ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber, maritime patrol etc. Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates of any Luftwaffe aircraft. He 111: early bombing workhorse Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and guided missile carrier. Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable during this process. They were both shot down by their own German FLAK. Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied resources. Non essential: Do 17 Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju 88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns but I don't think these were decisive. Might Have Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies. Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks. He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been ascertained. He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of exceptional performance had courage preceded arse covering. USA: Essential: P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite effective with appropriate tactics. P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy armour. B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber. B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue. B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war. Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51. Non Essential B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too demanding of runway conditions. Helldiver: too many handling problems. P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a wett wing which actually could excede the range of the P-51. Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations; Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have been essential Japan: Essential: Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty. Dinah, Ki 84 Non essential All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84 Soviet Union Essential Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16 Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its engine was needed. |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Oct 2, 5:06?am, Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better. It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a two stage Griffon. Germany: Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in non essential so I've added the column 'might have' Essential: Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill 1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98 atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph. The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed better with superior fuel. Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses. ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber, maritime patrol etc. Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates of any Luftwaffe aircraft. He 111: early bombing workhorse Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and guided missile carrier. Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable during this process. They were both shot down by their own German FLAK. Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied resources. Non essential: Do 17 Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju 88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns but I don't think these were decisive. Might Have Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies. Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks. He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been ascertained. He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of exceptional performance had courage preceded arse covering. USA: Essential: P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite effective with appropriate tactics. P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy armour. B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber. B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue. B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war. Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51. Non Essential B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too demanding of runway conditions. Helldiver: too many handling problems. P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a wett wing which actually could excede the range of the P-51. Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations; Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have been essential Japan: Essential: Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty. Dinah, Ki 84 Non essential All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84 Soviet Union Essential Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16 Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its engine was needed. Euno, Very nice list, but I am surprised that the German section alone is missing so many a/c: Ar-196 Ar-240/440 Ba-349 Bv-138 Bv-222/238 DFS 230 Do-335 Fi-156 Fw-187 Fw-189 Fw Ta 152 Fw Ta 154 Fw-200 Go-229 He-100/112 He-162 Hs-123 Hs-129 Ju-52 Ju-86/89 Ju-188 Ju-290/390 Me-163 Me-261 Me-264 Me-321/323 Me P.1101 *plus all German rotorcraft Some of these never became operational and yet could fill in the Might Have Beens while others from my list were either Essential or Non- Essential. I will leave it up to you to complete this list by telling us how you would rate each one. Rob |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Oct 2, 5:06 am, Eunometic wrote:
Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better. It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a two stage Griffon. Germany: Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in non essential so I've added the column 'might have' Essential: Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill 1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98 atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph. The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed better with superior fuel. Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses. ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber, maritime patrol etc. Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates of any Luftwaffe aircraft. He 111: early bombing workhorse Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and guided missile carrier. Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable during this process. They were both shot down by their own German FLAK. Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied resources. Non essential: Do 17 Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju 88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns but I don't think these were decisive. Might Have Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies. Me 262; probably was effective in staving of defeat by a few weeks. He 219; succombed to political problems; an excellent night fighter and unlike the Me 110 and early Ju 88 it had the speed to chase down British bombers once diversionary raids and feints had been ascertained. He 177: engine problems were not tackled agressively. The B series with 4 seperate engines could have made up the bulk of production and provided the Luftwaffe with a reliable long range bomber of exceptional performance had courage preceded arse covering. USA: Essential: P-40 USAAF effective fighter of excellent quality; it was quite effective with appropriate tactics. P-38 Had the range and performance to protect US bombers. It prevented the German Airforce from fielding heavy aircraft firing rockets, or impunely attacking bombers under the protection of heavy armour. B-17 Hightly survivable high altitude bomber. B-24 Longer ranged then the B-17; its only virtue. B-29 Defeat of japan almost impossible B-25 Versatile and easy to fly in all theatres of war. Wildcat, Hellcat, dauntless, avenger P-47 Ready far earlier than the P-51. Non Essential B-26 not as versatile as the B-25 and for a medium bomber too demanding of runway conditions. Helldiver: too many handling problems. P-51; the P-38 had sufficient range to cover untill the P-47M with a wett wing which actually could excede the range of the P-51. Vought corsair: took to long to perfect for carrier opperations; Hellcat did a good enough job. Had the Ki 84 been available in numbers and supplied with 100/130 octane fuel the corsair would have been essential Japan: Essential: Mitsubishi A6M zero and Betty. Dinah, Ki 84 Non essential All army types apart from the dinah and Ki 84 Soviet Union Essential Illushian Sturmovik, Pekelatov Pe2, Tupolev Tu 4, I-16 Unsure; Yakalove, LaGG, MiG series of fighters seemed to overlap in function. The MiG 3 only failing to secure production because its engine was needed. You are clearly unstable. |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
"Eunometic" wrote in message ps.com... Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. I strongly disagree. It played an essential role both as a nightfighter and in the shipping strike role in the ETO and their long range made them extremely valuable ground attack aircraft in the far east Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail It could and did however make an excellent ground attack aircraft and played a vital role in the western campaign attacking the Wehrmacht By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better. It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a two stage Griffon. Germany: Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in non essential so I've added the column 'might have' Essential: Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill 1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98 atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph. The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed better with superior fuel. Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses. ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber, maritime patrol etc. Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates of any Luftwaffe aircraft. He 111: early bombing workhorse Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and guided missile carrier. Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable during this process. They were both shot down by their own German FLAK. Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied resources. Non essential: Do 17 Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju 88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns but I don't think these were decisive. Might Have Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and The Me-210 suffered from oscillation making it a poor gun platform and had nasty stall characteristics. The pilots HATED them and only a month after entering service production was halted Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies. Say What ! The Me-110 entered service before the war started in 1939. While inadequate against first line fighters in the West it played a valuable role as a NF and ground attack craft. It survived in service long after the Me-210's were withdrawn. Keith |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Oct 3, 7:41 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote: "Eunometic" wrote in message ps.com... Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. I strongly disagree. It played an essential role both as a nightfighter and in the shipping strike role in the ETO and their long range made them extremely valuable ground attack aircraft in the far east It's contemporary the the Mosquito could also do that job, and much better at that. What I don't like about it was that if confronted by german airforce day fighters it was in deep trouble. It needed an escort; whereas the mosquito coastal command aircraft actualy took on Fw 190. If given a choice of choosing between 1000 extra Mosquito vs 1000 less beaufighter? Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail It could and did however make an excellent ground attack aircraft and played a vital role in the western campaign attacking the Wehrmacht I don't deny it. It was kind of successful, napier and tail breakages aside but as far as I can see the Mk XII Griffon spit could do a better job and was available at the right time. Immagine putting the engineers who were working on the the Typhoon/ Tempest and the Sabre to work on things more essential such as a B-29 class bomber using the centaurus or a fast medium bomber. Generally the British (air ministry, raf etc) had the knack of abandoning loosing designs and making pragmatic choices. By 1942 Supermarine was producing the Spitifre Mk XII which had a single stage Griffon engine and could outrun the Tempest. Although the mk XII also had poor altitude performance its handling was better. It would be early 1944 before the Mk XIX entered service which had a two stage Griffon. Germany: Since Germany lost the war I found it hard to determine what to put in non essential so I've added the column 'might have' Essential: Me 109: Hurricane vintage aircraft but remained competitive untill 1945 when Me 109K-4's were capable of 455mph and 48000ft service ceiling and even then there were versions such as the Me 109K-14 with a two stage supercharged DB603L engine starting production but not delivered as well as the DB603DSCM engine touching on 2000hp at 1.98 atm boost there were test of 2.3 and 2.4 atm going on at DB which suggests a power of 2400hp and speed of 470-480mph. The aircraft should have been replaced far earlier with something that had lighter contol forces and better speed. It would have performed better with superior fuel. Fw 190: this aircraft filled in many of the Me 109's weaknesses. ju 88: night fighter, high speed bomber, dive or slant bomber, maritime patrol etc. Ju 87: Devastating in combined arms breakthrough warfare and deadly accurate. When its days were over it lived on as a night bomber and ground attack aircraft with one of the lowest per mission loss rates of any Luftwaffe aircraft. He 111: early bombing workhorse Do 217 Only 1200 produced but still effective as a night bomber and guided missile carrier. Arado 234: the jet aircraft provided essential reconaisance: it was the first and only aircraft to survey the Normandy beach-head. Two prototypes flew about 36 missions with their engines being reliable during this process. They were both shot down by their own German FLAK. Fi 103 or V1. Extremely cheap to produce consumed massive allied resources. Non essential: Do 17 Me 110: its role as a night fighter could have been taken by the Ju 88, I am aware of its success in the Early Polish and Soviet Campaigns but I don't think these were decisive. Might Have Me 210/410 Quite a good aircraft that was to replace the Ju 88 and The Me-210 suffered from oscillation making it a poor gun platform and had nasty stall characteristics. The pilots HATED them and only a month after entering service production was halted The tragedy of the Me 210 was that the problem were known even before the moment the test pilot stepped out of the aircraft on its maiden flight. He said that the tail needed to be lengthened by 1 meter or so. To do that over 5million reich marks of jigs would need to be scrapped. So instead slats were tried, these didn't work and actually made things worse, a single large as opposed to two fins was tried; that didn't work. When the Me 210C was ordered by the Hungarian air force they bypassed the managerial and political problems and incorporated the lengthened tail and slats which worked brilliantly together. The solution to handling problems; lengthened tail, slats and contra- rotating propellor were well known. It was said that Willy Messerschmitt personally intervened in the design process to shorten the tail and remove the slats. Year were wasted in avoiding these simple modifications. Willy Messerschmitt was stripped of the assets or his company, barely avoided jail while I think Ernest Udet probably committed suicide over the issue. Heinkel had been told to stop He 111 production and tool up for Me 210 and when this failed it had to produce Ju 88's instead. There was such a loss in productivity (since tooling wasn't right) that production suffered thousands of aircraft and forced labour ended up being used. The rest of the industry suffered as well. The Me 410 was simply the fixed Me 210 with bigger 44L DD603 engine instead of 33L DB605 engines. Me 110. Fast, advanced armament, bomb bay, efficient etc but simply too late due to programm mismanagment to survive in allied skies. Say What ! I meant to type Me 410. It was a good aircraft with better performance than allied equivalents. Had it been on time or a year late it would have had a significant impact. The Me-110 entered service before the war started in 1939. While inadequate against first line fighters in the West it played a valuable role as a NF and ground attack craft. It survived in service long after the Me-210's were withdrawn. I think a few modified Me 210 opperated succesfully before being renamed Me 410 when they got the new engines to get away from the bad name. Keith |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:44:52 -0700, Eunometic
wrote: On Oct 3, 7:41 am, "Keith Willshaw" wrote: "Eunometic" wrote in message ps.com... Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. I strongly disagree. It played an essential role both as a nightfighter and in the shipping strike role in the ETO and their long range made them extremely valuable ground attack aircraft in the far east It's contemporary the the Mosquito could also do that job, and much better at that. What I don't like about it was that if confronted by german airforce day fighters it was in deep trouble. It needed an escort; whereas the mosquito coastal command aircraft actualy took on Fw 190. If given a choice of choosing between 1000 extra Mosquito vs 1000 less beaufighter? Beaufighter in service date Oct. '40, Mosquito in-service date almost exactly a year later. The Mosquito used merlin engines, a crucial supply item until some time in '43 Peter Skelton |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Oct 3, 6:44 am, Eunometic wrote:
The tragedy of the Me 210 was that the problem were known even before the moment the test pilot stepped out of the aircraft on its maiden flight. He said that the tail needed to be lengthened by 1 meter or so. To do that over 5million reich marks of jigs would need to be scrapped. So instead slats were tried, these didn't work and actually made things worse, a single large as opposed to two fins was tried; that didn't work. When the Me 210C was ordered by the Hungarian air force they bypassed the managerial and political problems and incorporated the lengthened tail and slats which worked brilliantly together. I knew the Luftwaffe test pilot assigned to the Hungarian 210 project until he passed away recently. He crashed the prototype due to a switchology f*-up that at first was blamed on him, but eventually was exonerated. He was a combat-scarred Bf 110 veteran (literally) that was lucky to survive an attack on a HSS'd B-17 that set both his aircraft and himself on fire. Given the choice to take over a desk or a transfer to the Hungarian test program, he chose the latter. According to Zittier, the uplock switch was not the German-designed one, and as soon as he lifted off, the landing gear folded up, leaving him out in the middle of a plowed field on his belly. Unhurt and with little damage to the aircraft, he quickly returned to the air and proved just how well the modifications worked. There were literally no performance issues with the Hungarian machines and it threw a lot of egg on the RLM's collective faces. Gordon |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
"Eunometic" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 3, 7:41 am, "Keith Willshaw" wrote: "Eunometic" wrote in message ps.com... Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft. *********************************************** I've created a list of aircraft of WW2 that were essential to that side and also others that were dispensible in the sense that their place could easily have been taken by other aircraft or that were so ineffective that they were not needed at all. A great deal of effort was spent on aircraft that did not perform and were 'war loosers' while there was also a great deal of duplication of effort on aircraft that added nothing special and detracted from gains in production. United Kingdom Essential: Hurricane; had to be avialable in numbers for battle of britain Spitfire; had to provide quality fighter throughout the war an amenable to all rolls. Mosquito; night bomber, night fighter, fast day bomber and most importanty reconaisance aircraft par excellance. Lancaster; easy to fly, devastating war load. Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. Non Essential: Beaufighter; not a useless aircraft as it could take damage but its roll could have been taken by others. It kept bristol busy. I strongly disagree. It played an essential role both as a nightfighter and in the shipping strike role in the ETO and their long range made them extremely valuable ground attack aircraft in the far east It's contemporary the the Mosquito could also do that job, and much better at that. The Beau was in service a full year before the Mosquito and with its twin air cooled radials was much more resistant to damage in the low level strike role. I knew a coastal command pilot who flew both types and he reckoned the Beau was the better choice for low level shipping strikes, one hit in the cooling system on the Mosquito and you could lose an engine What I don't like about it was that if confronted by german airforce day fighters it was in deep trouble. It needed an escort; whereas the mosquito coastal command aircraft actualy took on Fw 190. And lost if the German pilot knew his business, the Mosquito was outclassed by German single seat fighters and the coastal command version If given a choice of choosing between 1000 extra Mosquito vs 1000 less beaufighter? Timing old boy, in 1942 and 1943 there simply were not the Mosquitos available, the first FB VI didnt fly until June 1942 but the Beaufighter Mk IC entered service in May 1941 and played a vital role in the shpping strikes from Malta that devastated the logistics of the Afrika Corps. It was also much more suitable for use in the Far East where the Mosquito was to suffer from severe problems due to its wooden construction Hampden; Halifax; a good aircraft but Lancaster was better. Stirling; a waste of time although a saluatory lesson. Tempest and Typhoon: These aicraft had very poor high altitude performance and the typhoon had handling difficulties, was not particularly fast due to its thick wing and its airframe tended to snap of at the tail It could and did however make an excellent ground attack aircraft and played a vital role in the western campaign attacking the Wehrmacht I don't deny it. It was kind of successful, napier and tail breakages aside but as far as I can see the Mk XII Griffon spit could do a better job and was available at the right time. Immagine putting the engineers who were working on the the Typhoon/ Tempest and the Sabre to work on things more essential such as a B-29 class bomber using the centaurus or a fast medium bomber. B-29 type bombers were neither needed or affordable and the policy was to buy US made medium bombers. The Tempest was needed to counter the V-1 and FW-190 raids on the south coast and the Typhoon replaced the Hurricane IID in the ground attack role, both were essential roles. Generally the British (air ministry, raf etc) had the knack of abandoning loosing designs and making pragmatic choices. Just so, they decided NOT to pursue the Victory bomber design by Barnes Wallis for exceedingly pragmatic reasons, this was indeed a British aircraft designed for the same high altitude role filled by the B-29. Keith |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
"Eunometic" wrote Essential Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. For a short while, they probably wouldn't have missed it had it not been designed. Non Essential: Beaufighter; Invaluable in the anti-shipping role. Made a large if not desicive contribution to the campaign in N Africa by interdicting Rommels supplies. Tempest and Typhoon Wasn't the Tempest the quickest thing the RAF had for a while? Not inc Meteor These two types were very fine aircraft in the CAS and strike roles not to mention all the V-1s the Tempest claimed. They probably wouldn't have been missed much in the Air to Air role but unless you're putting iron on the ground Air superiority is just for show thus I would say they were essential |
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Essential and Dispensible WW2 aircraft.
On Oct 3, 8:00 am, "rob" wrote:
"Eunometic" wrote Essential Wellington: Britains Medium bomber and an important coastal command aircraft. For a short while, they probably wouldn't have missed it had it not been designed. I was suprised to learn that the Whitley had actually lower attrition since it had been designed for night opperations from the start and also did the u-boat patrol business. Non Essential: Beaufighter; Invaluable in the anti-shipping role. Made a large if not desicive contribution to the campaign in N Africa by interdicting Rommels supplies. I'm slowly getting convinced that it was essential but retain doubts. Had the Luftwaffe been on the ball it should have failed. Tempest and Typhoon Wasn't the Tempest the quickest thing the RAF had for a while? Clostermann talks of it doing something like 460mph TAS at 3000ft I think. Not that I believe that. The 1942 Mk XII spit could chase down V1's. Not inc Meteor These two types were very fine aircraft in the CAS and strike roles not to mention all the V-1s the Tempest claimed. They probably wouldn't have been missed much in the Air to Air role but unless you're putting iron on the ground Air superiority is just for show thus I would say they were essential |
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