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#1
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A thousand incursions a year?
Earlier this evening I was watching the program "Discoveries
This Week" on the Science Channel. The first segment was about the visual laser warning system being put in the ADIZ. All the reported errors about the lasers I'm addressing in alt.lasers. However, I wanted to mention here that some official involved in the deomonstration flights to the media said that ADIZ incursions are an almost daily occurence, saying that he thinks the actual number is about a thousand per yer. The blame is put on uneducated and uninformed pilots, which is probably true. But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness. BTW, this program is repeated multiple times over the weekend so if you get the channel you might be able to catch the show yourself. Brian -- http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html Blog: http://www.skywise711.com/Blog Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? |
#2
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The problem now is there are some Feds trying to use that data to
justify either expansion of the ADIZ AND FRZ, or banning GA altogether from the NCR. Now that some Congressmen have been inconvenienced by the "Godzilla Attack" alert condition, there are talks of draconian fines. Once again, no one has demonstrated the ADIZ is any more rational than the 30-minute pee-in-your-pants rule that SECDHS (NOT TSA) requested suspended... |
#3
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In article ,
Skywise wrote: But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness. It would be interesting to know how many incurions occur in each ADIZ that we have, as well as the total number of flights operating in and around each ADIZ, including the DC ADIZ. And for additional comparison, it would be useful to know the same kind of info for other large restricted or prohibited airspace. Then we could see whether incursions are a particular problem with the DC ADIZ. But the number of incursions with the DC ADIZ really doesn't say much about the usefulness of the ADIZ. The whole point of having the ADIZ is so that our Air Defense folks in the NCR can distinquish friend from foe. From an Air Defense point of view it would be easiest just to make the DC ADIZ one big prohibited airspace without any aircraft allowed at all. This would allow them to shoot at anything that flies. I suspect your question is more about the actual need of the DC ADIZ. -- Bob Noel no one likes an educated mule |
#4
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But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what
does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness. I find it hard to imagine that there are really 1000 incursions every year. But if there really are that many, I'm afraid this says volumes more about the caliber of our pilots than it does about the utility of an ADIZ. I'm really starting to grow uncomfortable with this topic, as it is wearing away at the patina of competence we, as pilots, have always worn. Maybe we really aren't as good as we think? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#5
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But if there really are that many, I'm afraid this says volumes more about
the caliber of our pilots than it does about the utility of an ADIZ. Controller error leads to incursions too - I've witnessed them. And it's also useful to know what exactly is defined as an "incursion". A wrong transponder code? (that nearly got a congressman shot down) Jose -- Nothing takes longer than a shortcut. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#6
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:32:24 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in :: But the number of incursions with the DC ADIZ really doesn't say much about the usefulness of the ADIZ. Actually, it says volumes about the lack of necessity for the ADIZ. The whole point of having the ADIZ is so that our Air Defense folks in the NCR can distinquish friend from foe. How can you be so sure that the ADIZ isn't a typically poorly thought out, airline industry inspired, TSA pseudo-security measure to provide the public with tangible evidence that the TSA are earning their pay, and the military with additional stateside operational duty? From an Air Defense point of view it would be easiest just to make the DC ADIZ one big prohibited airspace without any aircraft allowed at all. So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers. And the news media are milking the public hysteria cash-cow at every opportunity. |
#7
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Larry Dighera wrote: So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers. I'm largely with you but I just don't see this having to do anything with the airlines. DCA was shut down for a long time after 9/11 which damn near killed US Airways, among other things. This looks to me like nothing more than a stupid internal bureaucracy at work. -cwk. |
#8
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In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote: How can you be so sure that the ADIZ isn't a typically poorly thought out, airline industry inspired, TSA pseudo-security measure to provide the public with tangible evidence that the TSA are earning their pay, and the military with additional stateside operational duty? 1) the DC ADIZ isn't new is it? It isn't the only ADIZ, is it? 2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ. And note that I've never ever said having an ADIZ over/around DC is necessary. -- Bob Noel no one likes an educated mule |
#9
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wrote in message
oups.com... So the DC ADIZ is not a sensible measure. But the airlines, airline passengers, such as DC bureaucrats and congresspeople, have sufficient political influence to impose this useless affront to private flyers. I'm largely with you but I just don't see this having to do anything with the airlines. DCA was shut down for a long time after 9/11 which damn near killed US Airways, among other things. Who then partook in a major boondoggle of a free money grant, plus matching easy loans from the US government. Compared to the shutdowns and restrictions non-airlines have suffered, even the DCA closure was inconsequential, and the affected airlines were compensated, far beyond what was necessary IMHO. This looks to me like nothing more than a stupid internal bureaucracy at work. IMHO, it's clear that the airlines have wielded considerable political clout to ensure their unfettered access to the airspace around DC, and quite possibly could have used that clout to as well suppress non-airline flight. They probably were aiming primarily at business jet traffic (since that's their main competition), not caring (or possibly not even thinking about) that even smaller aircraft are affected as much or more. Of course, like practically everyone else, the airlines are incredibly short-sighted, believing that suppression of all other aviation in favor of themselves will be good for them. But in the long run, a healthy aviation industry requires a broad spectrum of uses. An industry made of only airlines is unlikely to prosper at all, and any significant disruption could eliminate it all together. Diversity is the best way to protect the industry, and right now that diversity is severely threatened. Pete |
#10
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:_b8Ce.156431$x96.114510@attbi_s72... [...] Maybe we really aren't as good as we think? I have always questioned the attitude that pilots are somehow better than the rest of the world. There are some differences, to be sure...the certification process eliminates people who are not fully committed. But it does nothing to eliminate the idiots. It just lets through the fully committed idiots, just as it lets through the fully committed competents. Personally, I think that in practically every endeavor, aviation included, there are more idiots than competents. That's why we need rules. Of course, the idiots find lots of ways to break the rules too, but without any rules things would be even worse. The real problem is when the rule-makers are acting as idiotically as the idiots the rules are supposed to protect. Then you get something like the DC ADIZ. This has been a service of the Public Cynicism Broadcast Corporation. Pete |
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