HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis
500 -- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't a
great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with my
flying.

That is an interesting observation.
I was thinking of taking a few contest rides with him.
In my case I would be happy just to watch and analyse his action, as I would
be interested in pushing my average up.
Karl may not be the ideal candidate for me, in terms of his approach to
contest flying maybe Doug Jacobs would be the better temperament for me. On
the other hand my learning curve is still going up but flatter then I would
like. And the challenge to learn on ones own is rewarding too.
Udo

"Raphael Warshaw" wrote in message
...
Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

Ray,

Udo was referring to the original poster, FC Norton, who started this
thread.

In Mr. Norton's post he stated:
"I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride."

Did you not read the post, or are you making an attempt at humor due to the
"Mooney/Money" typographical error?

Respectfully,
Wayne

Greg:

I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
more than I would with my very sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news:4aBWf.972$I%6.187@fed1read12...
Raphael Warshaw wrote:

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
Greg:

I agree that doing the flying is usually better (and certainly more fun),
but there's a lot to be learned from watching. I occasionally fly with an
instructor who's more comfortable close to the rocks than I am and learn
quite a bit from watching him figure the winds, speeds and escape routes,
more than I would with my very sweaty hand on the stick. I learned
braking points and cornering lines for auto racing in much the same way, by
sitting next to a competitive driver (in a sports prototype with a second
seat but no belts or roll-bar; we get smarter if we live long enough).

Ray Warshaw
1LK

It probably depends a lot on the person. I have always had trouble
learning anything without actually doing it myself.

Wayne:

Actually neither; I'd never heard the expression "Money Driver" and
wouldn't have figured it out without your help.

Thanks,

Ray Warshaw
1LK

How very Montessori of them!

wrote in message
oups.com...
The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
army's opinion on expendablility.

Ray Warshaw

I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my 29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

fcnorton wrote:
I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

The training system is the US is rather different to the one we operate
here in Australia, so I can't really comment on that side of things.

However, I would strongly urge you to spend some additional time with a
cross country gliding instructor once you have your licence. There are a
couple of critical things that will significantly improve your enjoyment
and safety. It's possible that these are covered to some extent in your
training, though.

First of all, some time with a cross country soaring instructor will
give you more insight into and skills in soaring. This will mean you are
more likely to stay airborne (particularly when the conditions become
marginal) and will have a good skill set as a base from which to build.

Second, out landing training is crucial - paddock selection training and
actually doing an out landing make a huge difference to confidence
levels when trying to cut the 'apron strings' and depart the home airfield.

All the best with whatever aircraft you select - you're getting involved
in the second best thing in life!

Robert

I wasn't aware that the brakes on the 304 would limit speed to below redline
in a vertical dive. If true, the ship goes way up in my estimate of
suitability for a new-to-glass pilot. The manual on my LAK-17 says that the
brakes can be fully extended at redline but to "expect high aerodynamic
forces". I haven't tried it either.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


"303SAM" wrote in message
...
I don't understand "redlline speed and recovery, even with the spoilers
out". The 303 has terminal speed limiting brakes, doesn't the 304?
My 303 doesn't quite make it to manuevering speed with the brakes out and
the nose pointed at the ground. The POH mentions a 2G deceleration if you
pull it all out at redline. Have no intentions of trying that one on my
29
year old lady.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

wrote:
The army wisdom is (or at least used to be) "See one, do one, teach
one". Interesting concept although it's important to consider the
army's opinion on expendablility.

My wife says her medical training was the same. Think about that when
your doctor says lose weight and get more exercise or you'll be needing
bypass surgery in 10 years!

Shawn