SZD-56-2 Diana

On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800, wrote:


At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple. Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?

How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how many 25.000$
(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are a very minor
fraction.

If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing the sport,
low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units than they
actually do. But they don't.


Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S. Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and just
because of the income does this make those guys or gals less qualified
pilots?

The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.

It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany per year for
gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In fact, in my club
(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.

Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders here if you
decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000 Euros including a
re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is absolutely no need
to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get an ASW-20, for
example.


No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and those
factories could sell more sailplanes...
It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question of sheer
production cost and quality.


and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
skills...

Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating there. The hot
gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles... 8.000 Euros
per piece here. Any questions left?


BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs are students
with really low income.



Bye
Andreas

Andreas has a point. Of course, I'm biased, since
I used to belong to his club.

The winch should make soaring more affordable. But
a problem I see for clubs such as ours is that we operate
from a public use airport. We are guests on the field
and have been there for over 18 years now. But I doubt
if we would be allowed to perform any type of ground
launch method. Plus, not using a tow plane would reduce
the amount of fuel we buy from the FBO to nothing.
I think our relations with the FBO are enhanced by
us buying fuel, renting ramp space, getting some maintainence,
etc.

But to have a rope or cable up in the airspace is probably
something our airport folks wouldn't want to contend
with.

Sure, our own private field would be nice and would
be even nicer if there were enough room for safe ground
launches. But I don't see that happening with our
club.

Andreas points to the youth in his club. It was the
same way in the mid Eighties when I was a member there.
At least the field wasn't too far out in the boonies
and those too young to have driver's licenses could
ride their bikes there or get a ride with friends or
parents.

In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
be willing to spend all day at the field.

Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
them from driving the Lepo.

(Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')

Yea, I enjoyed the winch launching at Andreas' club.
Always a blast! And it was very inexpensive.

Ray Lovinggood
Winchless in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 17:31 01 February 2005, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800,
wrote:


At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain
and simple. Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?


How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how
many 25.000$
(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are
a very minor
fraction.

If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing
the sport,
low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units
than they
actually do. But they don't.


Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this
type of prices but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000
U.S. Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even
less....and just
because of the income does this make those guys or
gals less qualified
pilots?

The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.

It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany
per year for
gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In
fact, in my club
(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.

Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders
here if you
decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000
Euros including a
re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is
absolutely no need
to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get
an ASW-20, for
example.


No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more
pilots and those
factories could sell more sailplanes...
It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question
of sheer
production cost and quality.


and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly
to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but
the pilot
skills...

Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating
there. The hot
gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles...
8.000 Euros
per piece here. Any questions left?


BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs
are students
with really low income.



Bye
Andreas

Hi Ray,

On 1 Feb 2005 17:34:41 GMT, Ray Lovinggood
wrote:


In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
be willing to spend all day at the field.

I guess THIS is the point why soaring is an old-mens' sport especially
in the US - the distances.

Even in Germany some clubs don't have a field close at hand - and
these clubs usually have significant trouble to find new young
members. I certainly would not spend four hours per weekend in the car
to go gliding.

A couple of years ago I stll used to think that all you US guys had to
do was to start a gliding club similar to Germany examples, but
nowadays I have learned that structures in the US are on most places
too different from Europe to allow such a club to be run successfully
on the long term.


Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
them from driving the Lepo.

(Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')

You should have mentionend that some of these kids actually started to
prefer driving (and crashing) the Lepo over flying... vbg




Bye
Andreas

No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
gliders just like the SZD55.
Jancsika wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303 or
Discus CS.
LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.

/Jancsika

wrote:
All SZD Bielsko gliders are very good. Since the factory became
privatized they are even better. Bottom line. And anybody who has
any
doubts about it need to educate themselves. The German sailplane
industry is simply riding on their good reputation. And whoever is
comparing BMW to Honda they need to pause and think for a
second....or
maybe 2....or whatever amount of time it takes. At the same time
the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain and simple.
Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros? Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this type of prices
but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000 U.S.
Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even less....and
just
because of the income does this make those guys or gals less
qualified
pilots? No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more pilots and
those
factories could sell more sailplanes....and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly to what
they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but the pilot
skills...in the mean time the SZD Bielsko is doing excellent job
keeping the prices of their sailplanes on more reasonable level and
anybody who has a problem with that should take golfing..not
flying.

Just fly one and you will see what I mean...

/Jancsika

wrote:
No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
gliders just like the SZD55.
Jancsika wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303 or
Discus CS.
LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.

/Jancsika

I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did once
in a while.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ray Lovinggood" a écrit dans le message
de news: ...
Andreas has a point. Of course, I'm biased, since
I used to belong to his club.

The winch should make soaring more affordable. But
a problem I see for clubs such as ours is that we operate
from a public use airport. We are guests on the field
and have been there for over 18 years now. But I doubt
if we would be allowed to perform any type of ground
launch method. Plus, not using a tow plane would reduce
the amount of fuel we buy from the FBO to nothing.
I think our relations with the FBO are enhanced by
us buying fuel, renting ramp space, getting some maintainence,
etc.

But to have a rope or cable up in the airspace is probably
something our airport folks wouldn't want to contend
with.

Sure, our own private field would be nice and would
be even nicer if there were enough room for safe ground
launches. But I don't see that happening with our
club.

Andreas points to the youth in his club. It was the
same way in the mid Eighties when I was a member there.
At least the field wasn't too far out in the boonies
and those too young to have driver's licenses could
ride their bikes there or get a ride with friends or
parents.

In America, it seems the glider fields are out in the
boonies and getting to them requires a car. Club members
come from all over and sometimes, getting a ride isn't
so easy. Parents have to come out and they might not
be willing to spend all day at the field.

Also, the youth members (me too) enjoyed driving the
Lepo when it wasn't our turn to fly. They were too
young to drive on the road, but that didn't prevent
them from driving the Lepo.

(Bonus points to those who know 'Lepo.')

Yea, I enjoyed the winch launching at Andreas' club.
Always a blast! And it was very inexpensive.

Ray Lovinggood
Winchless in Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 17:31 01 February 2005, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On 31 Jan 2005 09:24:22 -0800,
wrote:


At the same time the
German sailplane industry is killing this sport. Plain
and simple. Do
you know that LS-8 made by DG nowadays cost 65000 Euros?


How many 65.000 Euro gliders have been sold and how
many 25.000$
(PW-5, Russia, et cetera)? The low-priced gliders are
a very minor
fraction.

If raw prices of the gliders were what was killing
the sport,
low-priced gliders would be selling a lot more units
than they
actually do. But they don't.


Maybe in
Germany everybody is rich and they can afford this
type of prices but
here in the U.S.....many people making just about 30,000
U.S. Dollars a
year...in some states like Montana or the Dakotas even
less....and just
because of the income does this make those guys or
gals less qualified
pilots?

The explanation has been mentioned a lot of times now:
CLUBS. WINCH LAUNCHING.

It's very hard to spend more than $1.000 in Germany
per year for
gliding if you choose to stick to club gliders. In
fact, in my club
(and most other clubs in Germany) it's a lot cheaper.

Not to mention that usually you are buying used gliders
here if you
decided to have an own one. An ASW-15 costs 15.000
Euros including a
re-finishing that makes it as good as new. There is
absolutely no need
to buy a new 65.000 Euros glider - for 20.000 you get
an ASW-20, for
example.


No, but if the Germans will become more realistic and
adjust
the prices to the world level maybe we would have more
pilots and those
factories could sell more sailplanes...
It's not a question of being realistic - it's a question
of sheer
production cost and quality.


and then maybe we could see
that pilots with lower income, which translates directly
to what they
fly, will prove that is not the amount of money but
the pilot
skills...

Fly club class - and look which gliders are dominating
there. The hot
gliders for club class due to their Index are Libelles...
8.000 Euros
per piece here. Any questions left?


BTW: Most of the really active members in German clubs
are students
with really low income.



Bye
Andreas

I have flown all of them.
Jancsika wrote:
Just fly one and you will see what I mean...

/Jancsika

wrote:
No, that is not case. LS8, Discus 2 and ASW28 are standard class
gliders just like the SZD55.
Jancsika wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong but SZD55's price is at the same level as a DG303
or
Discus CS.
LS8, Discus2 and ASW28 is almost a different class again.

/Jancsika

Bert Willing wrote:
I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did once
in a while.

But Braunschweig has a wide grass area parallel to the paved runway.
This does not apply to most public airfields in the US.

Right - putting a winch cable onto a concrete runway which is used by
commercial traffic would push the limits a little bit.

But I rather was commenting on winch launch from controlled airfield.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Dieter Kleinschmidt" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Bert Willing wrote:
I've flown for years on a public airport (Braunschweig) in Germany with a
CTR, jet aircrafts, parachuters and 4 double-drum winches operated by 5
clubs. Winch launch was the standard method, aerotow something we did
once in a while.

But Braunschweig has a wide grass area parallel to the paved runway. This
does not apply to most public airfields in the US.

Bert Willing wrote:

Right - putting a winch cable onto a concrete runway which is used by
commercial traffic would push the limits a little bit.


But the winch cable doesn't need to be on the runway except a very
short length at the glider end, the cable may be at some angle from
the runway so that most of it and the winch itself are out of the
runway. Of course runway lights if present would the be a problem,
but it should work fine for unlighted runways.