What if the germans...

They are the same because Klaus Fuchs sent the designs to Moscow
via the Rosenbergs.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

Well,Keith, Moscow got plans in 1942 and they did not come from Los Alamos,they
came from LONDON.
Interestingly in feb.42 Deibners report was submitted to Wehrmact and German
scientists trying to persude Wehrmacht to give them 18 months not 9 months.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

1) The Entire Los Alamos team

All big shots of Los Alamos team were in Jonastal area on 4.7.45.
Some of them later said that first bombs were of German origin and lost
everything(Oppenheimer)

2) The entire German Nuclear development team
All key players of German team,Deibner,von Ardenne and Houtermans lived in Iron
Curtain Countries and continued to work for Soviet Union and GDR.
After Hirosima bomb exploded Stalin called Beria and unmistakenly asked him to
use "his Germans" and their knowledge for tthe building of the soviet bomb.
Beria called a meeting with top soviet and German nuclear scientists and gave
the job of building soviet bomb to von Ardenne.
(Because NKVD boss was aware of the origins of bomb and its creator)
von Ardenne,for the reasons I gave in previous posted persuaded Beria that a
soviet led bomb effort would be the best choice,so soviet scientists got the
leading role.

3) The entire Soviet team
Virtually Impossible with Soviet System,NKVD/KGB was responsible for the
information gathering and all important information went thru Berias
desk,technicaly very important but very complicated for the average NKVD man
type info,like nuclear bomb plans from 1942 could never reach the experts,even
if they allowed experts to see info,tthey made sure they could not get clues
about sources.

4) The entire British Nuclear team

This is the key of whole A-bomb making story

5) The German leaders tried at Nuremburg including
Hermann Goering
Only three of German leaders might have known it Hitler,Bormann and Himmler.
Like their CEO of advanced weapons development,Kammler, none of then has been
tried.period.

6) Joseph Stalin

I am pretty sure he knew,otherwise he would not give orders to Beria to appoint
Germans to develop soviet bomb.
Newspapers arent the best source of history, especially in war time
when they are heavily censored and have little real data to publish


But officials tasked with spreading mis or disinformation are?(or as You said
before officialls tell us what they told to tell us?)

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Bull**** Denyav

The unedited Farm Hall Transcripts are available for around
$

There is NO unedited Farm Hall,transcripts .

Yes there are, go an buy a copy or access the originals which have
been declassified and are available from the PRO or the US
under the freedom of information act.

The reference is
National Archives II, College Park, Maryland, in Record Group 77, Manhattan
Engineer District.

This is the copy sent to General Groves in 1945

Would you please explain for what CSDIC stands for?

Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre


Farm hall "guests" were actually prisoners without any rights.

Quite so

Even if you read "edited" Farm Hall documents carefully you will be amazed
to
see that German scients were pretty informed about ignition mechanism of
Little
Boy as if they designed it.


What ignition components ?


Houtermans was the developer of German and soviet plutonium bomb.

That he was not

He was the master of plutonium bomb development,and he is the Communist
German
citizen that His Majesty's goverment risked a confrontation with Stalin
just
before WWII for his safe return to Nazi Germany from stalins prison.


No he was antifacist German who moved to the Ukraine and as thrown in
prison in 1937.

He was returned to Nazi Germany in 1940 as part of the deal between
Stalin and Hitler. There was no intervention from HMG

Why British gov't intervened for a German citizen jailed in Stalins'
Soviet
Union?

They didnt

Any Ideas?


Yes - you are clueless

Houtermans being fully aware of what the Soviets were like
did NOT go to the USSR after the war , he taught alongside
Heisenberg at Gottingen until 1952 after which he moved to Berne

Keith

From: (Denyav)


They are the same because Klaus Fuchs sent the designs to Moscow
via the Rosenbergs.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

Well,Keith, Moscow got plans in 1942 and they did not come from Los
Alamos,they
came from LONDON.
Interestingly in feb.42 Deibners report was submitted to Wehrmact and German
scientists trying to persude Wehrmacht to give them 18 months not 9 months.

Hey, genius, the general "plans" for atom bombs had been around since the
1930s. The devil was in the details.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

1) The Entire Los Alamos team

All big shots of Los Alamos team were in Jonastal area on 4.7.45.
Some of them later said that first bombs were of German origin and lost
everything(Oppenheimer)

Cite please?

2) The entire German Nuclear development team All key players of German
team,Deibner,von Ardenne and Houtermans lived in Iron Curtain Countries and
continued to work for Soviet Union and GDR.
After Hirosima bomb exploded Stalin called Beria and unmistakenly asked him
to use "his Germans" and their knowledge for tthe building of the soviet bomb.

So?

3) The entire Soviet team
Virtually Impossible with Soviet System,NKVD/KGB was responsible for the
information gathering and all important information went thru Berias
desk,technicaly very important but very complicated for the average NKVD man
type info,like nuclear bomb plans from 1942 could never reach the
experts,even
if they allowed experts to see info,tthey made sure they could not get clues
about sources.

4) The entire British Nuclear team

This is the key of whole A-bomb making story

5) The German leaders tried at Nuremburg including
Hermann Goering
Only three of German leaders might have known it Hitler,Bormann and Himmler.
Like their CEO of advanced weapons development,Kammler, none of then has been
tried.period.

Hitler and Himmler suicided and Bormann was killed excaping from the bunker.
How convenient. They must have been part ofthe cover up.

6) Joseph Stalin

I am pretty sure he knew,otherwise he would not give orders to Beria to
appoint
Germans to develop soviet bomb.
Newspapers arent the best source of history, especially in war time
when they are heavily censored and have little real data to publish


But officials tasked with spreading mis or disinformation are?(or as You said
before officialls tell us what they told to tell us?)

Despite several requests you have yet to prove your contention the Nazis had
built and tested an atomic bomb and had built a second. You have yet to explain
how 3 bombs at the time of the fall of the Nazi sewage pit were successfully
detonated a few months later when they had weapons grade fuel.

When can we expect you to tell us about the yield of the tested Nazi atom bomb,
the date of the test, the location of the test and why the second one was never
used? You have been throwing out wild claims and have yet to back any of them
up.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

From: (Denyav)


Bull**** Denyav

The unedited Farm Hall Transcripts are available for around
$

There is NO unedited Farm Hall,transcripts .
Would you please explain for what CSDIC stands for?
Farm hall "guests" were actually prisoners without any rights.
Even if you read "edited" Farm Hall documents carefully you will be amazed to
see that German scients were pretty informed about ignition mechanism of
Little
Boy as if they designed it.



No fooling? The principles of gun type bombs were developed prior to WW2. Any
competent physicist with an interest in atomic bombs knew that.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
They are the same because Klaus Fuchs sent the designs to Moscow
via the Rosenbergs.

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

Well,Keith, Moscow got plans in 1942 and they did not come from Los
Alamos,they
came from LONDON.

Make your mind up old boy.

Was the bomb a German invention or a British one ?

Interestingly in feb.42 Deibners report was submitted to Wehrmact and
German
scientists trying to persude Wehrmacht to give them 18 months not 9
months.


Cite please

The army ordnance report prepared after the conference gives
no time line and warns

" the plutonium alternative could only be tested once we have a
functioning atomic pile and that at present they knew
neither the concentration in which plutonium would be produced
nor its properties in sufficient detail to make any definite
predictions."

see
(NARS microfilm T-175, roll 125).

A cover up would require the active co-operation of

1) The Entire Los Alamos team

All big shots of Los Alamos team were in Jonastal area on 4.7.45.
Some of them later said that first bombs were of German origin and lost
everything(Oppenheimer)


Thats incorrect

We know Oppenheimer was in Los Alamos overseeing the
critical implosion tests at the time.



2) The entire German Nuclear development team
All key players of German team,Deibner,von Ardenne and Houtermans lived in
Iron
Curtain Countries and continued to work for Soviet Union and GDR.

No sir its a matter of public record that Houtermans lived
and worked in Gottingen from 1946 to 1952 and Berne
after 1952

After Hirosima bomb exploded Stalin called Beria and unmistakenly asked
him to
use "his Germans" and their knowledge for tthe building of the soviet
bomb.
Beria called a meeting with top soviet and German nuclear scientists and
gave
the job of building soviet bomb to von Ardenne.

No sir that job was give to Academician Ivan Kurchatov
Von Ardenne was a high ranking employee but the Soviets
were not about to trust any Germans in 1945 and Beria
trusted nobody.

In any event Kurchatov had been running the Soviet nuclear
project since 1942

See
Stalin's Captive; Nikolaus Riehl and the Soviet Race for the Bomb, by N.
Riehl and F. Seitz, American Chemical Society and Chemical Heritage
Foundation, Washington, DC, 1996


(Because NKVD boss was aware of the origins of bomb and its creator)
von Ardenne,for the reasons I gave in previous posted persuaded Beria that
a
soviet led bomb effort would be the best choice,so soviet scientists got
the
leading role.


Beria wouldnt know a good physicist if he tripped over his corpse,
which with Beria was highly likely.

3) The entire Soviet team
Virtually Impossible with Soviet System,NKVD/KGB was responsible for the
information gathering and all important information went thru Berias
desk,technicaly very important but very complicated for the average NKVD
man
type info,like nuclear bomb plans from 1942 could never reach the
experts,even
if they allowed experts to see info,tthey made sure they could not get
clues
about sources.


They got the data , Kurchatov was briefed on the plutonium bomb
in July 1945 based on information passed from Klaus Fuchs routed
via Harry Gold

4) The entire British Nuclear team

This is the key of whole A-bomb making story


In your eye perhaps

5) The German leaders tried at Nuremburg including
Hermann Goering
Only three of German leaders might have known it Hitler,Bormann and
Himmler.
Like their CEO of advanced weapons development,Kammler, none of then has
been
tried.period.

6) Joseph Stalin

I am pretty sure he knew,otherwise he would not give orders to Beria to
appoint
Germans to develop soviet bomb.

In fact Stalin gave that job to Molotov who consulted Kaftonov, in charge of
keeping
tabs on science for the State Defense Committee and Ioffe and selected
Kurchatov in 1942

Kurchatov set up the new program and was passed information about
Fermi's reactor in Chicago (by the NKVD) . By 1944 he had
a 100 physicists in his team (more than the Germans) but was frustrated
by the low priority he was getting compared to the US effort and
taking an enormous risk went over Molotov's head and wrote to Beria

"Some 3,000 pages of new intelligence materials show the enormous
effort abroad. Might you offer some suggestions for our work corresponding
to our great state?"

even then the program was a low level one until the Hiroshima
bomb was dropped and everone realised the true power
of Nuclear weapons.

At this point Kurchatov was summoned before Stalin himself
who said

"Comrades. Make us atom bombs quickly. Ask anything you need.
If a child doesn't cry, his mother doesn't know what he wants."
He also told Kurchatov to push ahead "with a Russian scale."

Newspapers arent the best source of history, especially in war time
when they are heavily censored and have little real data to publish


But officials tasked with spreading mis or disinformation are?(or as You
said
before officialls tell us what they told to tell us?)


And the people that were there later tell us what really happened
which thet have in the 60 years since those events transpired.

A blind faith that only German can invent stuff doesnt make
it so.

Keith

Bull****

A quick google search will turn up dozens of references to him

Sure,my posts or your posts about Kammler will also show up in Google too,but
it does not mean that we are making an attempt to find him,we are not US,German
or Israeli governments,Nick Cooks book will also appear in Google in connection
with Kammler,guess what why?

His name appears no less than 6 times in the opening statements
of prosecuting counsel at the

Only once in connection with Speer prosecution.

Nuremburg trial where it was made
clear that he was high on the list of criminals being sought for
prosection.

Surely he was one of the most powerful but least known Nazis,which makes the
resistance or reluctance of Allies to the proposals about launching an
official investigation about his whereabouts and prosecuting him like Bormann
even less understandable.Walter Dornberger who loathed Kammler reported that
Kammler had ordered
his adjutant to shoot him so as not to fall into Russian hands.
Its is known for certain that he was NOT anongst the group
that surrendered to the Americans.

There are four different death locations and also four different death times
for Kammler,all of them carefully planned to make a possible investigation to
go nowhere.
So,even more than half century after his magical disappearing act,we still only
have preplanned hearsay info,and nothing else.
The first Soviet centrifuge plant was built at Sverdlovsk-44 in 3 stages
between
1962 and 1964 and the Gaseous Diffusion plants remained in production
well into the 70's

The first batch of "soviet" centrifuges was ready for serial production in 1952
after completion of exhaustive testing.

This is of course another of your fairy tales. The simple reality
is that serious post war development started in 1964 in West Germany
with the founding of a state owned company called
"Gesellschaft fuer Kernverfahrenstechnik" (GKT) at Juelich.

I think you must update your information.
Federal German Government classified all documents connected with centrifuge
development in 1961 upon requests from US government.
FRG already in 50s was at least as advanced as the Soviets,if not more.
A small footnote:Zippe returned to (West) Germany in early 50s and in late 50s
he was in Virginia.


Stop making stuff up Denyav.


So,why US pressurized Germany in 1960to classify all their post WWII
centrifuge development work and why Germans bowed to US pressure?

es there are, go an buy a copy or access the originals which have
been declassified and are available from the PRO or the US
under the freedom of information act.

There is NO unedited Farm Hall transcripts

This is the copy sent to General Groves in 1945

Even if they sent it to Truman.

Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre


Correct,and this is one of the reasons why
Farm Hall transcripts do not reflect whole truth.

Farm hall "guests" were actually prisoners without any rights.

Quite so

Thats another reason.

Make your mind up old boy.

Was the bomb a German invention or a British one ?

Well,as far I know a British citizen lost his well deserved pension in late
80s for leaking very detailed drawings and calculations used in A bomb making
in 1941 and 42 to NKVD.
But the trouble is that almost identical documents were also found in the
luggage of two German engineers killed by Soviets near Taganrog in Feb.42 and
sent to Kaftanov but he never sent them to experts.
Is it not pretty interesting that Brits and Germans had similar and much more
advanced drawings and calculations than previously assumed in 41/42 time period
and both English and German versions arriving in Soviet Union thru different
channels?
I dont know if the bomb is British or German invention,but I am pretty sure
without the occupation of Germany in 1942,US would not be worlds second nuclear
power.

We know Oppenheimer was in Los Alamos overseeing the
critical implosion tests at the time.
Yeah right,I guess this should be like one of Elvis apperances,not only him
also Groves and 17 were were flown in on 4.7.


No sir that job was give to Academician Ivan Kurchatov
Von Ardenne was a high ranking employee but the Soviets
were not about to trust any Germans in 1945 and Beria
trusted nobody.

You are again missing many points,Kurchatov got the job on 3,10,43,obviously
war was still going on and von Ardenne and all others were still in Germany.
Von Ardenne and others were "invited" to Soviet Union not before VE day but
after.
After Hirosima bombing,Stalin called a meeting with the leaders of Uran program
in Kuntsevo,Kurchatov was not even invited to this four day long meeting
marathon,which indicates the level Stalins (dis)satisifaction
There are only oral recollections from these meetings and according to Vannikof
Stalin asked Beria to use his Germans to produce the Soviet Bomb.
But the concrete result of meeting was the creation of so called atomic
politburo under leadership of Beria on 8.20.45
Kurchatow met with Stalin on 1.25.46 and following is an excerpt from his notes
about the meeting
"Its utmostly neccesary above everything else to use German
people,experience,equipment and factories,its what needed,Genosse Stalin too
was very interested in works of Germans"
But back to August 45,soon after the creation of atomic politburo,its head
Beria called a meeting with the Germans,in the middle of august acc.to
Ardenne,and told von Ardenne that must build for a bomb for soviet union too.
The rest is the history

They got the data , Kurchatov was briefed on the plutonium bomb
in July 1945 based on information passed from Klaus Fuchs routed
via Harry Gold

NKVD had documents since 1942 and they came from London,and they were available
to Kurchatov after March 10,43 this was the main reason of Stalins fury.

In your eye perhaps


surely

In fact Stalin gave that job to Molotov who consulted Kaftonov, in charge of
keeping
tabs on science for the State Defense Committee and Ioffe and selected
Kurchatov in 1942

As this proved very ineffective(Soviets could not make any significant advances
even though they had almost all neccesary documents) a new organization under
leadership of Beria was formed with Stalins degree Nr9887 on 8.20.45

Comrades. Make us atom bombs quickly. Ask anything you need.
If a child doesn't cry, his mother doesn't know what he wants."
He also told Kurchatov to push ahead "with a Russian scale."

After Hirosima bomb Kurchatow summoned before Stalin only twice,first one was
on Jan.25.46.
His impressions about this meeting is above.

And the people that were there later tell us what really happened
which thet have in the 60 years since those events transpired.

If documents closely connected with this issue are still under lock and at
least for another 20 years will be under lock,60 years should not be
considered a long period of time to forget.

A blind faith that only German can invent stuff doesnt make
it so.

Blind faith and orthodoxy should and could not replace objective and
investigative thinking,but as far as could remember we all were railroaded to
think blindly that only one country could have built first bomb during last 60
years.

Denyav, you stated the Germans built two atomic bombs and tested one. Several
of us asked you to provide evidence. You have not.

You are hereby banished to the Island of Lost Frauds along with tarver, teuton
and a few others.

Dan, U.S Air Force, retired

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Bull****

A quick google search will turn up dozens of references to him

Sure,my posts or your posts about Kammler will also show up in Google
too,but
it does not mean that we are making an attempt to find him,we are not
US,German
or Israeli governments,Nick Cooks book will also appear in Google in
connection
with Kammler,guess what why?

His name appears no less than 6 times in the opening statements
of prosecuting counsel at the

Only once in connection with Speer prosecution.


So that makes 7 and yet your claim that his name
only appeared once in ALL documents. I take it that
you admit you were wrong

Nuremburg trial where it was made
clear that he was high on the list of criminals being sought for
prosection.

Surely he was one of the most powerful but least known Nazis,which makes
the
resistance or reluctance of Allies to the proposals about launching an
official investigation about his whereabouts and prosecuting him like
Bormann
even less understandable.

However its clear you were incorrect in claiming he was not wanted

Walter Dornberger who loathed Kammler reported that
Kammler had ordered
his adjutant to shoot him so as not to fall into Russian hands.
Its is known for certain that he was NOT anongst the group
that surrendered to the Americans.

There are four different death locations and also four different death
times
for Kammler,all of them carefully planned to make a possible investigation
to
go nowhere.

Four starting points is trivial for an investigation

So,even more than half century after his magical disappearing act,we still
only
have preplanned hearsay info,and nothing else.
The first Soviet centrifuge plant was built at Sverdlovsk-44 in 3 stages
between
1962 and 1964 and the Gaseous Diffusion plants remained in production
well into the 70's

The first batch of "soviet" centrifuges was ready for serial production in
1952
after completion of exhaustive testing.


Cite please, I have the read the record of the Soviet developments
and this contradicts your claim

This is of course another of your fairy tales. The simple reality
is that serious post war development started in 1964 in West Germany
with the founding of a state owned company called
"Gesellschaft fuer Kernverfahrenstechnik" (GKT) at Juelich.

I think you must update your information.
Federal German Government classified all documents connected with
centrifuge
development in 1961 upon requests from US government.

Cite please - this is ANOTHER claim for which you show no evidence

FRG already in 50s was at least as advanced as the Soviets,if not more.
A small footnote:Zippe returned to (West) Germany in early 50s and in late
50s
he was in Virginia.


FRG had no working centrifuge, you just claimed the Soviets
did. A clear contradiction


Stop making stuff up Denyav.


So,why US pressurized Germany in 1960to classify all their post WWII
centrifuge development work and why Germans bowed to US pressure?

Provide proof for either claim.