Flaps on take-off and landing

A joke Rodney Dangerfield could have used...
" I don't get no respect, even my Playboy centerfold
rejected
me."




"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
| In article xXfOg.22647$SZ3.11479@dukeread04,
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| And a Playboy magazine is safer than sex.
|
| Yeah, but the staples in the centerfold can be painful.

"Mxsmanic" ... wrote in message
...
I'm surprised that a small handle in the cockpit would provide enough
leverage to lower flaps. Isn't there are a lot of aerodynamic
pressure to overcome against them (at least if they are lowered in
flight)?

In a Beech Sundowner the handle is maybe 18" long and looks like a big
version of a parking brake lever that you might see in a car. There's more
resistance the higher your airspeed, but it pulls up easily enough below the
max flaps speed. Also, it's good to have a bit of mechanical feedback like
that in case you don't have your wits about you and try to pull flaps at too
high an airspeed.

Are there good reasons to lower flaps in flight, outside take-off and
landing? I've thought that they would be useful for increasing drag
and lowering airspeed, but since they apparently cannot be used at
high speeds I guess this isn't a good idea. Sometimes if one must
descend rapidly just idling the throttle doesn't seem to be enough to
stay below hazardous speeds, and few aircraft seem to have speed
brakes.

Flaps have two main effects, they increase drag, like you said, and they
also increase lift and reduce your stall speed. These two effects can be
useful at different times. For example, if your wing is on fire and you want
to descend quickly, you lower the flaps and descend at Vfe (max speed with
flaps extended, top of the white arc). It's an interesting exercise the
first time you practice it, with the ground filling up your windscreen like
that and all. Another use is when you simply want to fly slower, such as
when you're in the traffic pattern and want to avoid getting too close to
someone in front of you. You can slow down without flaps, but using them
keeps you farther from a stall, which is a good thing at pattern altitude.
I'm sure more experienced pilots can give more interesting ways to use flaps
in normal flight, but those are the ones that come to mind just now.

Tom Young

"Jim Macklin" writes:

A real simulator costs more than the airplane it is
duplicating, a Beechjet or Boeing simulator can cost $8-10
million dollars or more.

Are there full-motions simulators for specific GA aircraft, such as
the Baron 58 that I've mentioned? The aircraft apparently costs about
$1 million to purchase today, so I should think that someone would
have simulators somewhere, but I don't know if a full-motion simulator
would be economical. If one exists, it would be fun to fly it.

It is worthwhile because it
doesn't burn several thousand pounds of fuel per hour, can
be run nearly 24/7, rarely kills anyone and it is a safe
place to do things that can't be done safely in a real
airplane. Also, it allows the airplane to be out earning
revenue.

Very similar to the reasons for using a PC-based simulator. You get
many of the advantages and avoid many of the disadvantages of a real
aircraft.

Even a PC based training device is very useful for learning
and practicing procedures, but you get what you pay for. A
King Air trainer with out full visual and motion still
allows learning all the systems and practicing the various
emergency and abnormal procedures.

Are there specific simulator packages for specific aircraft that run
on a PC? I've only used MSFS, mainly because it has a very good
all-around blend of the kinds of features one might want in a
simulator, but I've heard that there are other programs that are very
good for specific purposes, such as very intensive IFR training or
very accurate flight models.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Tom Young writes:

Flaps have two main effects, they increase drag, like you said, and they
also increase lift and reduce your stall speed. These two effects can be
useful at different times. For example, if your wing is on fire and you want
to descend quickly, you lower the flaps and descend at Vfe (max speed with
flaps extended, top of the white arc). It's an interesting exercise the
first time you practice it, with the ground filling up your windscreen like
that and all. Another use is when you simply want to fly slower, such as
when you're in the traffic pattern and want to avoid getting too close to
someone in front of you. You can slow down without flaps, but using them
keeps you farther from a stall, which is a good thing at pattern altitude.
I'm sure more experienced pilots can give more interesting ways to use flaps
in normal flight, but those are the ones that come to mind just now.

In simulation it seems that flying slow with flaps extended makes the
aircraft more prone to exaggerated movement for a specific control
input, especially in larger aircraft. Is an aircraft inherently less
stable at slow speeds with flaps extended? If so, is it just because
the flaps are out, or is it the slow speed that does it?

When flying around a city for fun at low altitudes (2000-3000 feet), I
often fly with full flaps and throttles near idle. It makes it easier
to go slow and enjoy the view, but I also get the impression that the
envelope of safe maneuvering is smaller in this configuration. But I
don't know if it's the flaps that do that, or the slow speed, or
perhaps both.

When I first tried simulation (many years ago now), I was surprised by
the drag effect of flaps. I had read about it but I didn't realize it
was so significant. I finally understood why I had heard commercial
pilots increasing engine speed while approaching a runway on landing.
I find myself doing the same thing, to maintain altitude mainly, and
also because it seems to improve flight characteristics if one flies
with more power (?), as opposed to just gliding in at the slowest
possible speed.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article SwnOg.22694$SZ3.9372@dukeread04,
"Jim Macklin" wrote:

Every airplane with flaps has speed limits with flaps
extended. If there is a positive stop, they may have a
series of allowable speeds.

Why do you say "positive stop"? I think you're talking about:

*23.1511***Flap extended speed.

(a) The flap extended speed VFE must be established so that it is‹

(1) Not less than the minimum value of VF allowed in 23.345(b); and

(2) Not more than VF established under 23.345(a), (c), and (d).

(b) Additional combinations of flap setting, airspeed, and engine power
may be established if the structure has been proven for the corresponding
design conditions.

I don't see anything there that mandates a "positive stop".

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:16:58 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

Sometimes if one must
descend rapidly just idling the throttle doesn't seem to be enough to
stay below hazardous speeds,

In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx)
on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above
stall speed.

In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx)
on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above
stall speed.

Try it at altitude first so you get a feel for the impending stall
should it occur. I did this to a landing once in a spot landing contest
where we were not allowed to slip, and I was high. Scared my passenger
(also a pilot) though; apparantly he hadn't really done much full-stall
slow flight.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:20:22 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote in :

Larry Dighera writes:

Are you aware that you are discussing this with one of the programmers
who wrote MS Flight Simulator?

No, but why would that make any difference?

It was just a bit of information I offered. I was thinking you might
want to take avail yourself of the opportunity to discuss the product
he helped create and you enjoy so much.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Are there full-motions simulators for specific GA aircraft, such as
the Baron 58 that I've mentioned?

Consider making or buying your own.

Google for the keywords "full" "motion" "simulator" - you'll come up with a
bunch of relevant hits. Here's some:

Plans for allegedly building your own for under $350:
http://www.acesim.com/main.html

Another do-it-yourself set of plans:
http://www.simcraft.com/phpPages/products/primusDIY.php

Some vendors, no price info:

http://www.noonco.com/flyer/
http://www.flightmotion.com/home.htm
http://home.claranet.nl/users/wvdlel...h/index-e.html

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 02:38:11 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

In those situations, you can descend by flying slowly (slower than Vx)
on the other side of the knee in the curve, but you must remain above
stall speed.

Try it at altitude first so you get a feel for the impending stall
should it occur.

Remember, he's flyin' a sim.

I did this to a landing once in a spot landing contest
where we were not allowed to slip, and I was high. Scared my passenger
(also a pilot) though; apparantly he hadn't really done much full-stall
slow flight.


Full-stall slow flight. That's an interesting term; you really mean
partially stalled, right?