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Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??



 
 
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  #12  
Old January 25th 20, 06:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On 1/24/20 12:29 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 1/23/2020 6:17 PM:
The nine px Alice prototype suffered a setback in Arizona as a fire on
the ground damaged the plane significantly, ahead of planned taxi tests.

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-tra...136327.article


In other electrifying news, a U.K. company is working on another
electric conversion of a small commuter airplane, this one featuring
an innovative turbine powered generator tucked inside the fuselage to
top up the batteries on those long flights.Â* So it will be powered by
electricity, JET-A, and a $12 million government grant.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...tric-airliner/


Why are we talking about electric airplanes instead of electric
sailplanes? Even stodgy Schleicher now has a really nice 18M electric
self-launcher at at an interesting price. It should be very appealing to
pilots that want a really good motorglider without the cost, operating
complexity, and maintenance of the fossil fueled motorgliders.

An the 15M GP15 also looks like a good choice: smaller, lighter,
cheaper, but still very good gliding performance. The miniLak and Silent
2 FES gliders seem perfect for pilots looking for decent performance and
freedom from the tow plane.

So why are we talking about electric airplanes? Sure beats talking
about phoney movies on ballooning in the 1860's, doesn't it?

I see some great similarities between stuffing lithium-cobalt batteries
in a glider and adding an electric motor, and doing the same with a
power plane. They both suffer from limited battery capacity, safety
concerns, significant cost, and charging hassles. Lots more work being
done currently on power planes than gliders. When a Pipistrel Alpha
Electro goes for a swim in a cold lake in Norway, it's hard to tell if
that's a power plane or motorglider.

I'm less impressed with the current crop of electric gliders than you
are. Couple of friends got in the very first orders for GP-15's and
have been waiting years for delivery. I keep seeing gliders certified
for self-launch taking tows, because they can self-launch or
self-retrieve, but not both. The gas-powered solutions aren't great,
but IMHO better than the electrics, or heaven forbid the jets.

-Dave





  #13  
Old January 25th 20, 10:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:27:45 -0700, kinsell wrote:

On 1/24/20 8:07 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 12:21:41 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 1/24/20 9:58 AM, Steve Leonard wrote:
Good to run those tests at night so you can see the fire sooner.


Good point. But if the main battery ever lit up (8200 lbs of
lithium-cobalt) it ought to make quite a bonfire.


Somehow flying that thing makes me think of the guy riding the H-bomb
in Doctor Strangelove.

I do hope they find safer battery chemistries before long. LiFePO4 is
much safer, but the energy density is even poorer and the cost even
higher.


Good analogy. That was Slim Pickens, wasn't it?

Someone at Eviation said the thing is (or was) basically a battery with
a picture of an airplane painted on it. I wouldn't have guessed they
could get 8200 lbs of lithium battery in there and still have room for
px. It's am ambitious project, 600 mile range, but at some point
reality starts to rear its ugly head.


With a big motor on each wingtip (in the photos they look bigger than the
rear motor) I do wonder about its handling if one of the wingtip engines
fails/gets hit by a goose, etc., or do they just shut down the other
wingtip motor and land wherever possible.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #14  
Old January 25th 20, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On 1/25/20 2:54 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:27:45 -0700, kinsell wrote:

On 1/24/20 8:07 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 12:21:41 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
On 1/24/20 9:58 AM, Steve Leonard wrote:
Good to run those tests at night so you can see the fire sooner.


Good point. But if the main battery ever lit up (8200 lbs of
lithium-cobalt) it ought to make quite a bonfire.

Somehow flying that thing makes me think of the guy riding the H-bomb
in Doctor Strangelove.

I do hope they find safer battery chemistries before long. LiFePO4 is
much safer, but the energy density is even poorer and the cost even
higher.


Good analogy. That was Slim Pickens, wasn't it?

Someone at Eviation said the thing is (or was) basically a battery with
a picture of an airplane painted on it. I wouldn't have guessed they
could get 8200 lbs of lithium battery in there and still have room for
px. It's am ambitious project, 600 mile range, but at some point
reality starts to rear its ugly head.


With a big motor on each wingtip (in the photos they look bigger than the
rear motor) I do wonder about its handling if one of the wingtip engines
fails/gets hit by a goose, etc., or do they just shut down the other
wingtip motor and land wherever possible.




Slick presentation from Paris Air Show he

https://simpleflying.com/eviation-al...tric-aircraft/

Quick answer is they intend to shut down opposite motor in case of
trouble with one wingtip. Supposedly they can takeoff on just the rear
after V2.

Like Harbour Air, making claims of really fast recharge times. Fly for
two hours, recharge in one. Good way to fry your batteries, maybe this
thing uses copious quantities of snake oil for cooling.

Harbour Air CEO was quoted in one of the articles as saying there are no
constraints in how fast you charge lithium batteries, just pump in more
current if you want a faster charge. I wonder if these guys actually
believe their own hype? Scary.














  #15  
Old January 25th 20, 09:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

kinsell wrote on 1/24/2020 9:39 PM:


Why are we talking about electric airplanes instead of electric sailplanes? Even
stodgy Schleicher now has a really nice 18M electric self-launcher at at an
interesting price. It should be very appealing to pilots that want a really good
motorglider without the cost, operating complexity, and maintenance of the
fossil fueled motorgliders.

An the 15M GP15 also looks like a good choice: smaller, lighter, cheaper, but
still very good gliding performance. The miniLak and Silent 2 FES gliders seem
perfect for pilots looking for decent performance and freedom from the tow plane.

So why are we talking about electric airplanes?* Sure beats talking about phoney
movies on ballooning in the 1860's, doesn't it?

I see some great similarities between stuffing lithium-cobalt batteries in a
glider and adding an electric motor, and doing the same with a power plane.* They
both suffer from limited battery capacity, safety concerns, significant cost, and
charging hassles.* Lots more work being done currently on power planes than
gliders.* When a Pipistrel Alpha Electro goes for a swim in a cold lake in Norway,
it's hard to tell if that's a power plane or motorglider.

I'm less impressed with the current crop of electric gliders than you are.* Couple
of friends got in the very first orders for GP-15's and have been waiting years
for delivery.* I keep seeing gliders certified for self-launch taking tows,
because they can self-launch or self-retrieve, but not both.* The gas-powered
solutions aren't great, but IMHO better than the electrics, or heaven forbid the
jets.


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #16  
Old January 26th 20, 05:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Emir Sherbi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

When you have so much battery capacity. You have a lot power to spare (discharging or charging). If they use the full capacity in two hours without counting the reserve the rate of discharge is 0,5C. And the chare rate is 1C. That is not much workload for most of the popular cells. But you need a extremely big super charger.
  #17  
Old January 26th 20, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

Emir Sherbi wrote on 1/25/2020 8:07 PM:
When you have so much battery capacity. You have a lot power to spare (discharging or charging). If they use the full capacity in two hours without counting the reserve the rate of discharge is 0,5C. And the chare rate is 1C. That is not much workload for most of the popular cells. But you need a extremely big super charger.

Yes, for example, some of the Teslas can "take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%,
40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #18  
Old January 26th 20, 06:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 463
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 1/24/2020 9:39 PM:


Why are we talking about electric airplanes instead of electric sailplanes? Even
stodgy Schleicher now has a really nice 18M electric self-launcher at at an
interesting price. It should be very appealing to pilots that want a really good
motorglider without the cost, operating complexity, and maintenance of the
fossil fueled motorgliders.

An the 15M GP15 also looks like a good choice: smaller, lighter, cheaper, but
still very good gliding performance. The miniLak and Silent 2 FES gliders seem
perfect for pilots looking for decent performance and freedom from the tow plane.

So why are we talking about electric airplanes?Â* Sure beats talking about phoney
movies on ballooning in the 1860's, doesn't it?

I see some great similarities between stuffing lithium-cobalt batteries in a
glider and adding an electric motor, and doing the same with a power plane.Â* They
both suffer from limited battery capacity, safety concerns, significant cost, and
charging hassles.Â* Lots more work being done currently on power planes than
gliders.Â* When a Pipistrel Alpha Electro goes for a swim in a cold lake in Norway,
it's hard to tell if that's a power plane or motorglider.

I'm less impressed with the current crop of electric gliders than you are.Â* Couple
of friends got in the very first orders for GP-15's and have been waiting years
for delivery.Â* I keep seeing gliders certified for self-launch taking tows,
because they can self-launch or self-retrieve, but not both.Â* The gas-powered
solutions aren't great, but IMHO better than the electrics, or heaven forbid the
jets.


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore.. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.
  #19  
Old January 26th 20, 11:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 585
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 12:27:22 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 1/24/2020 9:39 PM:


Why are we talking about electric airplanes instead of electric sailplanes? Even
stodgy Schleicher now has a really nice 18M electric self-launcher at at an
interesting price. It should be very appealing to pilots that want a really good
motorglider without the cost, operating complexity, and maintenance of the
fossil fueled motorgliders.

An the 15M GP15 also looks like a good choice: smaller, lighter, cheaper, but
still very good gliding performance. The miniLak and Silent 2 FES gliders seem
perfect for pilots looking for decent performance and freedom from the tow plane.

So why are we talking about electric airplanes?Â* Sure beats talking about phoney
movies on ballooning in the 1860's, doesn't it?

I see some great similarities between stuffing lithium-cobalt batteries in a
glider and adding an electric motor, and doing the same with a power plane.Â* They
both suffer from limited battery capacity, safety concerns, significant cost, and
charging hassles.Â* Lots more work being done currently on power planes than
gliders.Â* When a Pipistrel Alpha Electro goes for a swim in a cold lake in Norway,
it's hard to tell if that's a power plane or motorglider.

I'm less impressed with the current crop of electric gliders than you are.Â* Couple
of friends got in the very first orders for GP-15's and have been waiting years
for delivery.Â* I keep seeing gliders certified for self-launch taking tows,
because they can self-launch or self-retrieve, but not both.Â* The gas-powered
solutions aren't great, but IMHO better than the electrics, or heaven forbid the
jets.


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.


I don't think you will find a self launcher for less than AS 34.
  #20  
Old January 27th 20, 01:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 9:27:22 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 2:21:06 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 1/24/2020 9:39 PM:


Why are we talking about electric airplanes instead of electric sailplanes? Even
stodgy Schleicher now has a really nice 18M electric self-launcher at at an
interesting price. It should be very appealing to pilots that want a really good
motorglider without the cost, operating complexity, and maintenance of the
fossil fueled motorgliders.

An the 15M GP15 also looks like a good choice: smaller, lighter, cheaper, but
still very good gliding performance. The miniLak and Silent 2 FES gliders seem
perfect for pilots looking for decent performance and freedom from the tow plane.

So why are we talking about electric airplanes?Â* Sure beats talking about phoney
movies on ballooning in the 1860's, doesn't it?

I see some great similarities between stuffing lithium-cobalt batteries in a
glider and adding an electric motor, and doing the same with a power plane.Â* They
both suffer from limited battery capacity, safety concerns, significant cost, and
charging hassles.Â* Lots more work being done currently on power planes than
gliders.Â* When a Pipistrel Alpha Electro goes for a swim in a cold lake in Norway,
it's hard to tell if that's a power plane or motorglider.

I'm less impressed with the current crop of electric gliders than you are.Â* Couple
of friends got in the very first orders for GP-15's and have been waiting years
for delivery.Â* I keep seeing gliders certified for self-launch taking tows,
because they can self-launch or self-retrieve, but not both.Â* The gas-powered
solutions aren't great, but IMHO better than the electrics, or heaven forbid the
jets.


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.


It might be more interesting, and with an ultimately larger market, to sell an electric retrofit for the AS self launchers. The engineering and installation should be relatively simple. If my Wankel seizes I'd be tempted to do that, rather than replace it at great cost.
 




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