ASW20 or LS6

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:19:41 -0800, Mike the Strike wrote:

I think the spin reputation of the ASW-20 is a bit undeserved. Mine
behaved perfectly predictably once I got the CG forward of the aft limit
where the previous owner had left it! The LS-6 does have a narrower
cockpit, but this should only be a problem if you have really broad
shoulders. I suggest you try both before deciding. There isn't much
difference in performance between the two.

Mine departed twice during roughly 45 degree banked thermalling turns at
around 45 kts in flap #3 (zero flap deflection). There was no buffet or
warning - it just went. I wondered if it was just something my glider
did. I also thought it might be due to micro-turbulence in those two
thermals, so I tried repeating the turn near home at the end of the day
at the same and at even lower airspeeds she just flew smoothly round the
circle.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 30, 8:06*pm, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

You really can't go wrong with either one. "20's have greater landing
flap capability and more available performance increasing options than
the '6 but the real deciding factor for you will be condition and how
long till major attention will be needed to the finish.
Likeluy both have good trailers, but that is also a consideration.
'20's , when flown in a reasonable CG position , and with modern seals
on the wings, are quite benign in the stall - spin issue.
Good luck with your choice.
UH

On Jan 30, 5:06*pm, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

I have owned and loved both, The 6A has a soft wing, like the 20, but
you will find the 20B wing to be stiff, but then it has a disc brake.
The 6 has a sweet spot at about 65 knots that feels like she will go
forever. The wing on the 6 is attached at zero incidence and that
makes the nose a bit high when flying slow (on tow or when
thermalling), not a problem, just feels different at first. If I were
making the decision, I'd go for the 6, if the finish was good.
JJ

On Jan 30, 11:28*pm, KevinFinke wrote:
*In fact, there has only ever been one true standard class
ASW-20, and that is the ship that I own. It's the ASW-24 prototype,
SN24000. It was built from ASW-20B molds, but was modified to be a
pure standard class ship.

That glider was based at El Tiro, AZ, for a while. When the owner
told me it was an ASW-24 I wondered what he had been smoking until he
told be the history.

Andy

On Jan 30, 6:06*pm, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

I've flown only the LS-6. I'm 6'0" 215 with fairly broad shoulders,
long torso, and loved the snug but comfortable fit. Super sweet flying
ship. All other things equal I'd probably buy a 6 over a 20 if I had
the chance, but I've not flown a 20. With a glider over 15 years old
I'd likely buy the glider with the best finish.

At 17:46 31 January 2011, Jim Archer wrote:
On Jan 30, 6:06=A0pm, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am
6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. =A0All that being
said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

I've flown only the LS-6. I'm 6'0" 215 with fairly broad shoulders,
long torso, and loved the snug but comfortable fit. Super sweet flying
ship. All other things equal I'd probably buy a 6 over a 20 if I had
the chance, but I've not flown a 20. With a glider over 15 years old
I'd likely buy the glider with the best finish.


You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.
Buy an LS8,put an extra 1000hrs in your log book and think again.
If you are a 1000hr pilot already I take back the sactimonious comments
,but remember,this is an open forum and many of your readers have more
ambition than experience.
Jon

At 13:41 31 January 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:19:41 -0800, Mike the Strike wrote:

I think the spin reputation of the ASW-20 is a bit undeserved. Mine
behaved perfectly predictably once I got the CG forward of the aft
limit
where the previous owner had left it! The LS-6 does have a narrower
cockpit, but this should only be a problem if you have really broad
shoulders. I suggest you try both before deciding. There isn't much
difference in performance between the two.

Mine departed twice during roughly 45 degree banked thermalling turns at

around 45 kts in flap #3 (zero flap deflection). There was no buffet or
warning - it just went. I wondered if it was just something my glider
did. I also thought it might be due to micro-turbulence in those two
thermals, so I tried repeating the turn near home at the end of the day
at the same and at even lower airspeeds she just flew smoothly round the

circle.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Mine stalls at 40 knots wings level. At 45 degrees it would therefore
stall at 48 knots, and (even assuming your bank was a bit less than it
looked) you were already stalled.

I have found its handling impeccable (well, so far!) but wouldn't thermal
below 50 with neutral flap. 45 is too slow even with thermalling flap.

On 1/30/2011 10:28 PM, KevinFinke wrote:
"The std class version is the Pegasus, built in France."

That's not really true Eric. While the Pegasus fuselage is descended
from the ASW-20, the wing is very different. Different planform and
airfoil. In fact, there has only ever been one true standard class
ASW-20, and that is the ship that I own. It's the ASW-24 prototype,
SN24000. It was built from ASW-20B molds, but was modified to be a
pure standard class ship. I don't have the use of flaps, but I have a
very interesting dual aileron setup. The inboard ailerons end about
1.5 meters from the wing root, and they throw differently than the
outboard. It's a lovely machine with a very fast roll rate. Next type
you voyage to Ephrata you'll have to look me up and I can show it to
you. As for it's performance, it will eat a Pegasus for lunch.

You are correct, the Pegasus is not an ASW 20 with the flaps glued to
the wing. It does have the same wing area, bendiness, and the same
planform (at least, it appears to be the same), so I'd call it at least
a very close relative of the ASW 20. The one I flew felt just like my
ASW 20.

On the other hand, the ASW 19 and ASW 20 are very different gliders, and
it is a mistake to use the 19 as a stand-in for the handling of the ASW 20.

I'd love to look at SN2400 - that's new to me!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On 1/31/2011 4:57 AM, Nigel Cottrell wrote:
I owned an ASW 20F for some years which was ballasted to the aft C of G
limit ( the trim system isn't the greatest piece of design and forward C
of G just makes it worse) and it was a very docile forgiving glider. As
stated earlier the flap system is still the best ever devised which is
very comforting for field landings.
Having said that on the type discussion group Yahoo site there were
numerous posts suggesting that the later B and C models with the blown
wing are not as forgiving, although I have not flown either so can't
confirm if this is true.

I'm under the opposite impression! I found it very forgiving. My
personal experience is 1500 hours in an ASW 20C and never a stall, spin,
or even an incipient spin that wasn't intentional. That's with the CG
about 75% of the range.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:32:43 +0000, Roger Burghall wrote:

At 13:41 31 January 2011, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:19:41 -0800, Mike the Strike wrote:

I think the spin reputation of the ASW-20 is a bit undeserved. Mine
behaved perfectly predictably once I got the CG forward of the aft
limit
where the previous owner had left it! The LS-6 does have a narrower
cockpit, but this should only be a problem if you have really broad
shoulders. I suggest you try both before deciding. There isn't much
difference in performance between the two.

Mine departed twice during roughly 45 degree banked thermalling turns at

around 45 kts in flap #3 (zero flap deflection). There was no buffet or
warning - it just went. I wondered if it was just something my glider
did. I also thought it might be due to micro-turbulence in those two
thermals, so I tried repeating the turn near home at the end of the day
at the same and at even lower airspeeds she just flew smoothly round the

circle.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Mine stalls at 40 knots wings level. At 45 degrees it would therefore
stall at 48 knots, and (even assuming your bank was a bit less than it
looked) you were already stalled.

I have found its handling impeccable (well, so far!) but wouldn't
thermal below 50 with neutral flap. 45 is too slow even with thermalling
flap.

Mine was better at low speed than that - was quite happy at 42 kt in
thermal flap and was generally well-behaved in a thermal between 45 and
50 kts in zero flap (#3) - I generally thermaled in zero flap because it
felt so much more responsive: IIRC it stalled at around 37-38. Certainly
it wouldn't sit down above 34 kts in landing flap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |