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ASW20 or LS6



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 1st 11, 12:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default ASW20 or LS6

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May
wrote:


You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.
Buy an LS8,put an extra 1000hrs in your log book and think again.


1.000 hrs before flying a flapped ship?
LMAO!

In my club 100 hrs total time and a completed 300 km task were the
requirement to fly the ASW-20L. Perfectly adequate.

People were flying Astir, ASW-15 and DG-300 before the ASW-20.


Andreas

  #22  
Old February 1st 11, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default ASW20 or LS6

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:14:56 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On the other hand, the ASW 19 and ASW 20 are very different gliders, and
it is a mistake to use the 19 as a stand-in for the handling of the ASW
20.

However, if you're thinking of buying a 19, 20 or Pegase and want to try
the cockpit for size before making the trip to see the glider, its worth
remembering that all three cockpits are near as dammit identical.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #23  
Old February 1st 11, 12:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default ASW20 or LS6

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.

Agreed. The 20s POH says that the first recovery action is to push the
flap fully negative and that the glider will often auto-recover with no
further action by the pilot. Height loss and speed gain are impressive: I
entered an incipient spin at 45 kts, stopped rotation in a 1/4 turn and
then pulled out, returning to level flight 300 ft lower and with 80 kts
on the clock.

You're quite busy on take-off too: the POH says to start the run with one
notch of negative flap for better aileron control. The ailerons start to
bite about 30 kts and you need to move to neutral flap at that point
because it won't lift off in negative flap, but you NEED to be in neutral
before you hit 40 or it will pop up when you move the flap lever. If you
miss neutral and hit thermal the first few launches, leave it there or
you'll likely to find yourself way below the tow plane.

The other thing that nobody has mentioned yet applies to both gliders.
Learning to fly a flapped glider is similar to learning to drive in an
automatic car and then transitioning to a manual shift. By that I mean
that operating the flaps is easy, but being in the right flap setting at
all times and getting it engrained that the flap lever is your primary
speed control takes time: it took me 30-35 hours to get to the point
where flap use became something I didn't need to think about before doing
it. I had nearly 300 hours by the time I flew a '20, with at least half
of than on the club's Pegase and Discus.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #24  
Old February 1st 11, 01:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
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Posts: 175
Default ASW20 or LS6


I've owned a "6-b" for 9 years now and just love the way it handles.
Cross wind take offs are a breeze (pun intended) - even with the CG
hook.The durned glider just tracks straight - a far cry from the Pegasus
that I had a share in that seemed to want to head for the side lines
whenever there was a hint of a cross wind. I'm 5'9'' and 185 lbs and it
is a bit snug but I kind of like that as it sort of makes you feel like
you're part of the machine. The "6-b" (and 'c') has a stiff wing and you
feel that in the ride but you get used to it. Sometimes I do wish that
it had landing flaps like the '20' for short fields.

Tony
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING
  #25  
Old February 1st 11, 02:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Whelan[_3_]
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Posts: 400
Default ASW20 or LS6

On 1/31/2011 1:16 PM, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.


Having transitioned - safely & entirely uneventfully (in the negative sense of
things) - from 2-33s/1-26s to a no-negative-flap, spoiler-less (i.e. large
deflection landing flaps-only), 'in-between'/non-nose tow-hooked single-seat
sailplane, with a total of 128+ glider-only hours logged, I would suggest the
above position may be just a tad overstated.

How one mentally approaches flaps and their use (or, non-use, as the
transitioning-case may be) is, I believe, vastly more important than seeking
comfort in hard-n-fast 'stick-time rules.'

For example, if the flaps are camber-changing-only (e.g. LS-6), you can simply
set/leave them at zero until such time as you feel comfortable experimenting
with them. Both ships permit use of spoilers to assist initial aileron
response if aero-towing (just as a transitionee might already be doing in
unflapped glass). Further, Schleicher's '20 (and Rolladen-Schneider's LS-6)
allow (insist-on) the use of spoilers as the primary glideslope control
device. (Kinda-sorta related, just because the ship being transitioning to has
retractable gear is no reason to believe one *must* retract or cycle the gear
on early flights.)

No harm in using the KISS philosophy of transitioning...

If you die on your first flight in such a ship using such a technique, perhaps
small comfort can be (briefly) obtained from the knowledge flap (mis-)use
wasn't the proximate cause of death. :-)


I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.


Again, this advice may be OK (as far as it goes), perhaps even in the Pilot's
Operating Handbook (I don't know)...but not without some caveats. The devil -
as always - is in the details...

The first *2* flapped ships I transitioned to *had* no negative flaps (or, any
spoilers, either). And while in neither one did I ever experience an
inadvertent 'departure from controlled flight', in both the best (IMHO)
potential-overspeed-avoidance device in their bag of tricks had such a thing
happened and startled/scared me into not 'simply'/immediately reducing the AoA
(which worked every time I used it) would have been to *'2nd-immediately'*
roll/pump on ALL the flaps. Sure this would have had the short-term effect of
increasing the wing's effective AoA..but so what, as neither ship could
'reasonably' be induced to exceed max-flap/maneuvering speeds with 'em full
down. It would've bought time to sort things out without eating vast vertical
gobs of airspace or zooming above maneuvering speed.

So - is it preferable to 'inadvertently spin down through a thermal gaggle' in
an AS-W 20 and recover at high-ish speeds with negative flap, or, to spiral
down 'perhaps somewhat stalled' but vertically somewhat slower with full
flaps? (This is not a trick question.)

My vote is to avoid the situation in the first place. This'll work in the
LS-6, too. :-)

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Apologies for treading so far out onto this particular discussional ice,
but I must've 'felt a need'...!
  #26  
Old February 1st 11, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
binks
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Posts: 5
Default ASW20 or LS6

On Jan 31, 8:34*pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 1/31/2011 1:16 PM, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.


Having transitioned - safely & entirely uneventfully (in the negative sense of
things) - from 2-33s/1-26s to a no-negative-flap, spoiler-less (i.e. large
deflection landing flaps-only), 'in-between'/non-nose tow-hooked single-seat
sailplane, with a total of 128+ glider-only hours logged, I would suggest the
above position may be just a tad overstated.

How one mentally approaches flaps and their use (or, non-use, as the
transitioning-case may be) is, I believe, vastly more important than seeking
comfort in hard-n-fast 'stick-time rules.'

For example, if the flaps are camber-changing-only (e.g. LS-6), you can simply
set/leave them at zero until such time as you feel comfortable experimenting
with them. Both ships permit use of spoilers to assist initial aileron
response if aero-towing (just as a transitionee might already be doing in
unflapped glass). Further, Schleicher's '20 (and Rolladen-Schneider's LS-6)
allow (insist-on) the use of spoilers as the primary glideslope control
device. (Kinda-sorta related, just because the ship being transitioning to has
retractable gear is no reason to believe one *must* retract or cycle the gear
on early flights.)

No harm in using the KISS philosophy of transitioning...

If you die on your first flight in such a ship using such a technique, perhaps
small comfort can be (briefly) obtained from the knowledge flap (mis-)use
wasn't the proximate cause of death. :-)

I have flown

neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.


Again, this advice may be OK (as far as it goes), perhaps even in the Pilot's
Operating Handbook (I don't know)...but not without some caveats. The devil -
as always - is in the details...

The first *2* flapped ships I transitioned to *had* no negative flaps (or, any
spoilers, either). And while in neither one did I ever experience an
inadvertent 'departure from controlled flight', in both the best (IMHO)
potential-overspeed-avoidance device in their bag of tricks had such a thing
happened and startled/scared me into not 'simply'/immediately reducing the AoA
(which worked every time I used it) would have been to *'2nd-immediately'*
roll/pump on ALL the flaps. Sure this would have had the short-term effect of
increasing the wing's effective AoA..but so what, as neither ship could
'reasonably' be induced to exceed max-flap/maneuvering speeds with 'em full
down. It would've bought time to sort things out without eating vast vertical
gobs of airspace or zooming above maneuvering speed.

So - is it preferable to 'inadvertently spin down through a thermal gaggle' in
an AS-W 20 and recover at high-ish speeds with negative flap, or, to spiral
down 'perhaps somewhat stalled' but vertically somewhat slower with full
flaps? (This is not a trick question.)

My vote is to avoid the situation in the first place. This'll work in the
LS-6, too. :-)

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. Apologies for treading so far out onto this particular discussional ice,
but I must've 'felt a need'...!


Well said it is always best to avoid the situation in the first place,
but there is also no substitute for knowing proper
recovery technique when it does happen.
To answer Johns question about my experience, let me first say that I
have just under 100 hours in the 2-33.
That being said I have no intention to go out ,buy a high performance
glass ship, and go soaring with the
thought that I will just get the hang of it in a few hours of flight.
My intentions are to purchase the glider now during the winter months
to "hopefully" fly after at least 6 more months of active gliding
starting in the spring. I was planning to get a few more hours in the
2-33 first, especially after 6 months of no flying(it snows up here in
northern Indiana),I would want to be refreshed in the trainer
.. After that I plan to transition to the Clubs 1-36 glider for a while
and then get some additional hours in a 2 place glass ship. Not sure
when I will actually be ,ready to fly the new one, I don't know how I
could put a minimum hours requirement on it. I was leaving it up to my
confidence level and abilities to determine when the time would be
right. We have some excellent instructors at our glider port who will
always keep a watchful eye out.
I am very competitive and welcome the increased complexity and
challenge of a flapped ship. I am looking forward to cross county
flights and eventually competition. Am I sound in my thinking, or am I
out in left field?

  #27  
Old February 1st 11, 05:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Ash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 299
Default ASW20 or LS6

In article ,
Martin Gregorie wrote:

You're quite busy on take-off too: the POH says to start the run with one
notch of negative flap for better aileron control. The ailerons start to
bite about 30 kts and you need to move to neutral flap at that point
because it won't lift off in negative flap


Not so! Guess how I know.... It took considerably longer to lift off
than usual, and was *weird* on tow until I finally pulled my head out
and realized I was in the wrong flap setting, but it does work.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
  #28  
Old February 1st 11, 10:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michel Talon
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Posts: 30
Default ASW20 or LS6

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:16:26 +0000, Jonathon May
wrote:


You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.I have flown
neither,but I think if you spin either your first action is to select
negative flap.Otherwise your risk exceeding max flap speed,and if you
don't rip them off,as soon as you land you are in for an expensive trip
to the repair man.
Buy an LS8,put an extra 1000hrs in your log book and think again.


1.000 hrs before flying a flapped ship?
LMAO!

In my club 100 hrs total time and a completed 300 km task were the
requirement to fly the ASW-20L. Perfectly adequate.


In my club it was similar. After a 300 km task (the gliders were mostly
pegases for that) you could take an LS3 or similar flapped gliders, or
a janus.


--

Michel TALON

  #29  
Old February 1st 11, 11:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_10_]
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Posts: 261
Default ASW20 or LS6

On Jan 31, 12:16*pm, Jonathon May wrote:

You don't say how much experience you have, but both the ASW 20 and LS6
are flapped, and not suitable for low hours pilots.


Flapped glass ships are more slippery to be sure. I watched a friend
pull the wings off a 301 Libelle when the airspeed got away from her
shortly after putting it in negative flap on her first flight.

My first flight in a flapped ship was three years later in an LS-3. I
was 18 and had 79 total hours. It was a dream to fly with no bad
habits. Four years after that I got into a Ventus A with a grand total
of 155 hours under my belt. It was much more of a handful, especially
with the 16.6 meter tips.

I suppose it's mostly about knowing when you're ready and taking
proper care - regardless of what you hear on r.a.s. If you're not
sure, get some dual time with an instructor who has high performance
glass experience.

9B
  #30  
Old February 1st 11, 01:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_4_]
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Posts: 398
Default ASW20 or LS6

At 01:06 31 January 2011, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

Do not concern yourself over the flaps issue, it is purely a matter of
training and the flaps on the ASW20 are very intuative.
To answer your question.
Do you want a well harmonised, does what it says on the tin, good
performance glider built by Schleicher or a perfomance glider build by
someone who went out of business?
Do you want a glider where the spares are easy to obtain with no
restrictions, you only pay for the spares and not for the right to buy the
spares you need? If the answer is yes ASW20
OR do you want to have to pay for the right to purchase spares with the
possibility that you will be told, having purchased that right, that the
spares are not available? If yes to this go LS
Do you want to be able to order a service manual or flight manual for your
glider and only pay the cost of the manual? If so ASW20
Do you want to be forced to pay a large amount every year, which will give
you the right ot have a new manual, which may only be amended in the number
on the title page? If so Go LS
Do you want genuine service from a long standing and helpful glider
manufacturer who gives you what you pay for? Go ASW20
If you don't mind paying out a large sum every year for something you may
never benefit from, go LS.
As a final note I have flown both and in the handling qualities there is
no contest, ASW20 every time. As far as performance is concerned on a
heaving day the LS probably has the edge purely because you can load more
water in it, whether this outweighs (pun intended) the pleasant
characteristics of Schleicher gliders is a matter of personal taste.

 




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