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US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 11th 14, 06:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

Tim and all...

Here's the Sat imagery, Radar for the last day at Nephi. The plus plots are the TP database. The label for the plot points is mangled due to a bug in the program.

Here are two radar loops from MTX (Salt Lake City radar): One is reflectivity at 0.5 deg (lowest) elevation angle; the other is for echo tops in thousands feet. The GOES 1km Vis photo follows that. Note that there was an outage of sat imagery between 130pm and 3pm MDT (1930z-2100z):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pyze3df7tc...1_20140809.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lc7wtxh3lh...s_20140809.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zou6a4j9n9...s_20140809.mp4

One suggestion on how to get the most timely radar graphics. Install an app called "RadarScope" or "Radar Pro". It's the best app out there for NEXRAD radar imagery of professional quality (free and paid for version - Iphone, Ipad, Android). I recommend the paid for version ($4.99) because it has lightning data plots. Lightning data in the U.S. is proprietary and must be accessed with a subscription (even the NWS pays for it). The Pro version also has the latest 20 frames instead of 5 (they come in every 3-10 minutes). There is no PC version... just IOS and Android. The free version is minus lightning data and shows only last 5 frames.

I've used this on the ramp just before launch to help make a decision on which way storms are moving or developing. It's also good for deciding on whether or not to disassemble. Works great on a small screen PDA phone.

Walt Rogers WX
  #12  
Old August 11th 14, 02:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JJ Sinclair[_2_]
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day


I've used this on the ramp just before launch to help make a decision on which way storms are moving or developing. It's also good for deciding on whether or not to disassemble. Works great on a small screen PDA phone.



Walt Rogers WX


Unfortunately, some don't stop using their smart phone app's on the ground. With the near real-time-radar app and artificial horizon app's that are available today, I have seen tracks that deliberately flew under thunderstorms on a MAT day. Two pilots even admitted to "icing up". I believe we need strong enforcement of the NO SMART PHONE accessible in the cockpit rule........................or we will be picking someone up with a stick and spoon! We all know what awaits us inside a thunderstorm...........ice, hail, lightning and perhaps the biggest factor disorientation! Some may even be tempted to teach themselves how to fly inside clouds OJT.

I recommend the CD at every contest, be directed to check every cockpit on every takeoff, next year.

JJ Sinclair
  #13  
Old August 11th 14, 03:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

On Monday, August 11, 2014 6:51:56 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:

I recommend the CD at every contest, be directed to check every cockpit on every takeoff, next year.


JJ - This is getting off-topic; but no way, man.

Many people now depend on a smartphone/tablet device for their main flight computer (i.e. XCSoar, iGlide, etc). What's that? You think PDAs/PNAs are OK? Hrm, have you thought about the fact that people can connect those to their smartphone or other devices to get cellular or satellite connections and do the exact same thing? Do *you* want to be the one to handle the task of forcing them all to buy expensive panel-mounted systems? And what kind of effect would that have on the pool of pilots who could participate in contests? Smartphones and tablets are making it cheaper and easier for pilots to fly XC and try contests - why would you reverse that trend and make it harder?

As for pilots chasing T-storms and cloud-flying: That has NOTHING to do with someone using a smartphone. That behavior is all about the personality of the pilot, their habits, and their (lack of) ability to evaluate risk. Take away their technology and they'll still find ways to do stupid things; banning a device isn't going to change their attitude. The SSA has processes for putting unsafe pilots on probation and/or banning them from contests - they can and should be used when appropriate.

Lastly, for anyone and everyone who makes the argument that computers in the cockpit are an unsafe distraction: I would ask you to tell me how well you fold and unfold sectional charts in a glider cockpit; especially how you do it while looking outside and with one hand on the stick at all times. And if you tell me you can do that, I will call bullsh*t EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Using a paper map and an old-school prayer-wheel or E6-B requires plenty of heads-down time. You may feel more *comfortable* with it if you learned to fly that way, and it may be more safe for _you_ to fly that way (until you've practiced using a flight computer more and it becomes intuitive); but digital moving maps and flight computers are not inherently more or less safe than paper. It all comes down to practicing with your systems and being able to use them efficiently with minimal heads-down time.
-----

Back on-topic: I think the protest idea is a good one; but its unlikely to be used consistently. Pilots are strongly motivated to focus on the task and attempt to complete it. In-the-moment they are probably not going to think about "ancillary" rules like day devaluation or protests. I don't want to pile extra responsibility onto the CD - having served as one in beginner contests, I know they already have enough on their plate - so I'm not sure if there's a perfect answer. Tim's points are well-taken but I wonder if those suggestions raise more opportunities for gamesmanship with day devaluation (i.e. to protect a lead late in a contest or something like that) - its unlikely as it would probably take the cooperation of multiple pilots; but its still something to keep in mind when proposing "fixes". In the meantime, perhaps the Welcome Briefing at the start of every contest should include a reminder about filing protests (what they're for, how its done, what _not_ to protest, etc). I haven't really seen that addressed at some of the Regionals I've been to.

--Noel

  #14  
Old August 11th 14, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

On Monday, 11 August 2014 08:55:42 UTC-6, noel.wade wrote:
On Monday, August 11, 2014 6:51:56 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:



I recommend the CD at every contest, be directed to check every cockpit on every takeoff, next year.






JJ - This is getting off-topic; but no way, man.



Many people now depend on a smartphone/tablet device for their main flight computer (i.e. XCSoar, iGlide, etc). What's that? You think PDAs/PNAs are OK? Hrm, have you thought about the fact that people can connect those to their smartphone or other devices to get cellular or satellite connections and do the exact same thing? Do *you* want to be the one to handle the task of forcing them all to buy expensive panel-mounted systems? And what kind of effect would that have on the pool of pilots who could participate in contests? Smartphones and tablets are making it cheaper and easier for pilots to fly XC and try contests - why would you reverse that trend and make it harder?



As for pilots chasing T-storms and cloud-flying: That has NOTHING to do with someone using a smartphone. That behavior is all about the personality of the pilot, their habits, and their (lack of) ability to evaluate risk. Take away their technology and they'll still find ways to do stupid things; banning a device isn't going to change their attitude. The SSA has processes for putting unsafe pilots on probation and/or banning them from contests - they can and should be used when appropriate.



Lastly, for anyone and everyone who makes the argument that computers in the cockpit are an unsafe distraction: I would ask you to tell me how well you fold and unfold sectional charts in a glider cockpit; especially how you do it while looking outside and with one hand on the stick at all times. And if you tell me you can do that, I will call bullsh*t EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Using a paper map and an old-school prayer-wheel or E6-B requires plenty of heads-down time. You may feel more *comfortable* with it if you learned to fly that way, and it may be more safe for _you_ to fly that way (until you've practiced using a flight computer more and it becomes intuitive); but digital moving maps and flight computers are not inherently more or less safe than paper. It all comes down to practicing with your systems and being able to use them efficiently with minimal heads-down time.

-----



Back on-topic: I think the protest idea is a good one; but its unlikely to be used consistently. Pilots are strongly motivated to focus on the task and attempt to complete it. In-the-moment they are probably not going to think about "ancillary" rules like day devaluation or protests. I don't want to pile extra responsibility onto the CD - having served as one in beginner contests, I know they already have enough on their plate - so I'm not sure if there's a perfect answer. Tim's points are well-taken but I wonder if those suggestions raise more opportunities for gamesmanship with day devaluation (i.e. to protect a lead late in a contest or something like that) - its unlikely as it would probably take the cooperation of multiple pilots; but its still something to keep in mind when proposing "fixes". In the meantime, perhaps the Welcome Briefing at the start of every contest should include a reminder about filing protests (what they're for, how its done, what _not_ to protest, etc). I haven't really seen that addressed at some of the Regionals I've been to.



--Noel


Please review the latest scores for the last day of Nephi. We received via email a flight log from P9 on Sunday since he got back so late. The scorer has unavailable Sunday, yup he has a real job, so I updated them this morning.
  #15  
Old August 11th 14, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:42:26 PM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
PS:

It would be most helpful to have a suggestion of exactly what formula you would like put in place for a situation like this. Include pre-start landouts in the definition of "contestant?," as if they had landed out after starting?

John Cochrane


John,

I think the formula is correct for the devaluation (sorry can't find it in the rules right now) but every pilot the takes a tow should get counted if they turn in a flight log. I think this is where it used to be before it was changed to have the minimum distance. You have the potential for purposeful devaluation, but they can do that today by flying out a few miles as well. Then if 15 pilots try to fly and only a few get around the devaluation or zero for the day is automatic. Several days at Moriarty would have been devalued more and Nephi's last day as well for 15m/Std.

Tim

  #16  
Old August 11th 14, 06:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

John, I've taken your advice and submitted a formal protest.

Bif Huss "H7"
  #17  
Old August 11th 14, 06:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

Chuckle, chuckle. ;-). Thank you all for my lunchtime reading and some heartfelt laughter.

This thread has already recycled several of my favorite old topics.

1) I do not see how a rule change can "thread the needle' on this issue. There is far too much subjectivity in determining "what is fair?" In a sport which allows starting literally anytime after the starting gate opens (competitors often choosing to start HOURS apart) and a sport that is is often only "constrained" by 60 MILE wide turn area's, LUCK is INTENTIONALLY DESIGNED IN! Who are we trying to kid? This is why I would like to see a far higher proportion of pure Assigned Tasks along with limitations on the start gate (30 minute window for example).

There will always be uncontrollable variables (luck, bad luck) effecting results in any sport no matter how tightly controlled (a gust of wind in the 100 meters, etc). Sailplane racing, however, is extroidinarily loose in its race quality constraints and therefore intentionally introduces a high degree of chance and luck. This is, of course, justified by the goal of reducing the chance of landouts to as close as zero as possible. Unfortunately the quality of the competition has dropped significantly because of that goal (IMO).

In regards to changing the devaluation rule as you suggest, the "judgement" required to determine the fairness of one pilot "getting away" and starting successfully and another "not having a fair chance" is a very fine line. Even the launch order on a particular day in a large contest can have significant effect on the outcome (more luck). If we had more overall focus within the sport of soaring (Grand Prix is the exception) on caring about race quality and constraint of racing variables, I would be much more inclined to say that starting success rates also needs a better form of control. But as it stands with only 3% Assigned Tasks and nearly 65% TAT's (many with 60 mile areas!) and free start rules, why does trying to further define starting fairness really matter? If you tighten this rule than why should you not also provide relief for competitors who find there way into the "wrong side" of a 60 mile turn area? Shouldn't they also be able to claim the task was unfair when they were unable to "get away" from the bad luck they experienced in the wide turn area? The same goes for pilots who choose to start early or late and land out because of that decision. Was that skill or luck? Sure some are going to argue that its all skill choosing when to start or choosing which side of a 60 mile turn area is best. Others (me included) would argue that a large degree of luck is involved. You are taking a risk by starting early or late? You are taking a risk when you choose what side of a 60 mile turn area to head towards! In a sport that intentionally designs in a high degree of "variability" (aka chance, aka uncontrollable variables)...complaining about not being able to start while another does is a fairly weak argument when compared with the opportunities for luck that are designed into the sport in general.

2) Fair opportunity to race? Race? Only 3% of our tasks in the USA in 2013 were races (Pure AT's). TAT's and MAT's are distance/average speed/timing your final turn/additional turn points while managing your computer tasks. A gliders relative position to yours is almost meaningless. With only 3% pure AT's we are not really racing sailplanes any more. 3% works out to only 7 US sailplane races in 2013.

3) I find the complaints about PDA's, smart phone driven soaring apps and cellular data particularly amusing. The US RC has already gone to great lengths to ban cell phones, cellular data and satellite data from competition.. As Noel says this is unenforceable and with that people are likely ignoring the rule entirely. It would be much easier to simply allow smart phones to be used normally and tell the old schoolers to get over it! In reality, cellular data is very unreliable at altitude ( 2000 ft AGL) and most sailplane pilots are very busy when low. It is fairly unpractical to utilize cellular based data when racing in a glider competition. Sporadic weather updates (radar, etc) is the best that one could expect. That said, checking the weather (radar image) a moment before takeoff to get a picture of thunderstorm activity, etc is a smart thing to do in my opinion and should be allowed. I have already made this argument until I was blue in the face. It fell on deaf ears. As it stands today you still have complainers who want it banned and an RC who has "banned it" but doesn't care to enforce the rule in the slightest way. Meanwhile many don't care and use it anyway. I don't see the sense in any of it. We should either enforce the rule tightly or make it legal and get out of our own way once and for all.

Sean


On Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:10:41 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
After the day at Moriarty earlier this year and Nephi yesterday for the 15M/Std Combined class the rules for how a day is devalued needs to be addressed. I understand why the rule was modified a few years ago so that if pilots just didn't fly it would not devalue the day, but the criteria of what makes a valid attempt is now too high.



We had most of the class yesterday not able to get up and make a start. It was not from trying as some pilots took up to three tows. We had a thunderstorm come just north of the field and had to elephant walk the class to the other end. We had several pilots including 7V and GW land out trying to get to better air prior to starting so they were considered not creditable attempts. How much more creditable do you have to be than willing to land out to attempt the task?





Why is this important? Because it makes the contest score subject to random luck rather than showing skill. If we want to attract more pilots to racing we need to ensure that they feel like they can have a fair opportunity to race.



Yesterday should have been devalued to almost nothing or have no score because too few pilots had an opportunity to compete.



Please send a note to one of the SSA Rules Committee Members to ensure that this gets put on their list of things to address this year.



Tim (TT)

  #18  
Old August 11th 14, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

I've only rarely used "Radar Scope" on the ground before launching. On a few occasions I used it after landing to decide on whether to disassemble. My Iphone is carried in the side pocket in "Airplane Mode" (transceiver shut down). Once in awhile (like last Saturday on FG from a 750k triangle), I bring it out to talk with my crew to give me a speedy retrieve. On that flight I landed at Cal City after starting in Tehachapi.

So, I'm advocating use of high res radar and lightning data on the ground just before launch, or to aid situational awareness for the CD just before making a decision to open a task. That would be just one input to the CD. He also has to stay in touch with all the vulnerable launched pilots in the presence of a developing storm. Some times the task committee pilots are not in the right position to make a judgement. Use of 2 minute update trackers with altitude would also help in making a decision by the CD. As I said, it a very stressful high workload environment for the CD to make a subjective "fairness of task" decision.

Let me pose another question. Use of a PDA phone with hi res radar can provide a decisive advantage to a pilot who has to make a decision on which way to get around a storm. When visibility is poor, would the brief "heads down" time to help make the correct decision deviating around a storm be MORE or LESS safe that not using it? Granted, there still is a fairness issue of the PDA "haves" and "have nots". Based on this argument for a margin of safety with on board weather info use and the fact that enforcement is not practical, perhaps allowing uses of these devices should be considered for future rule changes.

Walt Rogers WX


  #19  
Old August 11th 14, 07:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

Just to clarify... I am not a big fan of fiddling on the cockpit with in flight weather devices. Already, I have too many distractions with flight computers. It's far preferable to keep the "eyes out of the cockpit".

Walt WX
  #20  
Old August 11th 14, 11:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig R.
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Default US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

As for pilots chasing T-storms and cloud-flying: That has NOTHING to do with someone using a smartphone. That behavior is all about the personality of the pilot, their habits, and their (lack of) ability to evaluate risk. Take away their technology and they'll still find ways to do stupid things; banning a device isn't going to change their attitude. The SSA has processes for putting unsafe pilots on probation and/or banning them from contests - they can and should be used when appropriate.

--Noel


I guess I'll address the 800lb gorilla in the room that seems to be the root of the problem.
It is my opinion that given the chance, some pilots will cheat when they get the chance if the risk of getting caught is low / penalties are not enforced. With nearly 55 years of playing golf (many many many tournaments), it is a fact that there are those that cheat. I witness it almost daily when I play. It is NOT a small number of people. It may be as simple as moving your ball under summer rules, not posting a low score to your handicap, or perhaps "finding" a lost ball that happen to miraculously appear (from your pocket). The list is endless. Some think that minor cheating is OK and normal. The fact is that cheating is cheating. How many do you know that have "fudged" their income taxes? I have no illusions that glider pilots are more noble than golfers (the gentleman's sport).
With the competition staff normally being volunteers, limited hours in a day to run the show, and trying to keep things running smoothly, most don't have the time to dig deeply to see if someone is not being kosher. No one likes to be the "bad guy", but sometimes I think that one or two public "examples" would be keep some cheaters in line. It won't stop all. I wish it would....
 




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