What it took to get wings in WW II.

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Lawrence Dillard"
"ArtKramr" wrote in message
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and
tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the
total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was
an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it
would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign,
after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs
of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art
Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits?
And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large
proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE
been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the
Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER
important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties,
including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. ir navigation,
especially
where Air Navigation weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were
concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.



No you are not off base. But I never went through pilot training. I was
classified as a Bombardier right out of San Antonio since my tests
indicated
that was what I was best suited for. And I think they were right, I
really
enjoyed the Norden and navigating and did quite well at it. I graduated
second
in my class at Big Spring and was assigned to Marauders as were all
those guys
at the top of the class. This is to dispel any idea that bombardiers and
navigators were all washed out pilots, Very few were. The highest math
skills
were needed by the Navigators. I know many pilots who were totally
befuddled
by what it took to navigate celestially. Each specialty had its special
demands
and we were chosen to fill those jobs based on our skills. But I am
sure that
you are right and many who washed out were moved into jobs where there
talents
could best be used.


Arthur Kramer

My pilot training class was 56U. I flew PA-18s and T-6Gs at Hondo AB,
TX and B-25s at Goodfellow AFB, TX. The class was a combination of
student officers from the ROTC programs and Aviation Cadets. I think
the overall washout rate after starting training was slightly less
than 40%. I remember at lease one SIE (self initiated elimination).
After getting my pilot wings I was sent to AOB (Air Observer
Bombardier) training at James Connally AFB because I was going to SAC
in RB-47s and Gen. Lemay wanted one of the two pilots to be triple
rated. I got navigator wings from that school and was rated as
navigator and radar bombardier. We were called "triple headed
monsters". As a new co-pilot on an RB-47 I helped the RN with mission
planning and celestial precomps. I did all the sextant work from a
port at the co-pilot's position. I also plotted all three star fixes
on a Vaid computer as a back up to the RN and gave him a range and
bearing from the assumed position for a cross check. I never made a
radar bomb run in B-47s or B-52s, but I think I had a better
understanding of the N and RNs jobs because of my training.

Gene Myers

Art Kramer's nostalgia-
All Aviation Students were classified by the US Army Air Corps, during WW
II, at a Classification Center, to determine aptitude to become a Pilot, a
Navigator, or a Bombardier. Each Student undergoing Classification received
3 Ratings, the maximum was an 8.
Kramer received 3 #'s also, just like everyone else. Those with 8's went to
Pilot Training or NavigationTraining, if you washed out of Pilot Training,
you were sent to Navigator Training, if you washed out of Navigator Traing
you were sent to Bombardier Traing, if you washed out of Bombardier Training
you were sent to Gunnery School or the Infantry.

Gene Myers Nostalgia

If you will check you orders your orders from Mather, you will ind you were
Rated a Bombardier, A Radar Observer and from Ellington a Navigator.
Therefore you re a 4 Headed Monster, entitled to wear4 sets of Rated Officer
Wings!

I just don't remember having difficulty where Kramer said his professional
Bombardiers did, do you?

I.E.:"Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. ir navigation,
especially
where Air Navigation weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were
concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Phineas Pinkham"
Date: 7/15/03 10:24 AM Pacifi

f you will check you orders your orders from Mather, you will ind you were
Rated a Bombardier, A Radar Observer and from Ellington a Navigator.
Therefore you re a 4 Headed Monster, entitled to wear4 sets of Rated Officer

Interesting. I assume you were a pilot... What plane? What theatre? Tell us
all.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From:

Tell us
all.

for the ww2 era types the WDAGO Form 20


Chris Mark

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/15/03 7:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris

How can you know that when you don't know the final number?

Arthur Kramer

I don't "know" it, Art, which I admitted, and which is why I added
"roughly speaking."

If you know it, let the rest of us know and we'll do the math, just
for curiosity's sake.

vince norris


I have no idea which is why I don't try to speculate and guesstimate. Roughly
speaking that is.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

The highest math skills were needed by the Navigators.

Art, if I may jump in here again, surely you know that's an
exaggeration.

Celestial navigation requires no math skills beyond the ability to
read a table and do simple arithmetic--the arithmetic every kid learns
by the time he gets to eighth grade. It requires no knowledge of
"higher math." No differential or integral calculus, or simultaneous
equations, or for that matter, even how to do square roots.

I went through navy flight training from 1949 to 1951. At that time,
at least, the navy had no separate training for navigators; all
midshipmen and navcads in multi-engine flight training were taught
celestial navigation and it was assumed they would serve as navigators
until they worked their way up to copilot.

I received so many hours of celestial navigation training that when I
returned to the University of Illinois to complete my undergrad
program, I was awarded 30 semester-hour credits of celestial
navigation! That is the equivalent of a full, two semester college
program. As a result, I was able to receive my bachelor's degree a
full year early.

So I can say, agian, that celestial navigation requires no math
skills bryond the ability to read a table and do simple arithmetic.

All the difficult math was done by those who prepared the tables, so
that aboard an aircraft, it took very little time to do the simple
math requried between taking the shot and plotting the position.

When an aircraft is moving along at a couple hundred knots, that is
important.

I took a commission in the marine corps, where I had served as an
enlisted man before being selected for flight training. So I can also
say that in the marines, the aircraft navigators were enlisted men,
who needed a GCT only 110 (slightly above average) to attend
navigation school.

vince norris

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/15/03 8:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

The highest math skills were needed by the Navigators.

Art, if I may jump in here again, surely you know that's an
exaggeration.

Celestial navigation requires no math skills beyond the ability to
read a table and do simple arithmetic--the arithmetic every kid learns
by the time he gets to eighth grade. It requires no knowledge of
"higher math." No differential or integral calculus, or simultaneous
equations, or for that matter, even how to do square roots.

I went through navy flight training from 1949 to 1951. At that time,
at least, the navy had no separate training for navigators; all
midshipmen and navcads in multi-engine flight training were taught
celestial navigation and it was assumed they would serve as navigators
until they worked their way up to copilot.

I received so many hours of celestial navigation training that when I
returned to the University of Illinois to complete my undergrad
program, I was awarded 30 semester-hour credits of celestial
navigation! That is the equivalent of a full, two semester college
program. As a result, I was able to receive my bachelor's degree a
full year early.

So I can say, agian, that celestial navigation requires no math
skills bryond the ability to read a table and do simple arithmetic.

All the difficult math was done by those who prepared the tables, so
that aboard an aircraft, it took very little time to do the simple
math requried between taking the shot and plotting the position.

When an aircraft is moving along at a couple hundred knots, that is
important.

I took a commission in the marine corps, where I had served as an
enlisted man before being selected for flight training. So I can also
say that in the marines, the aircraft navigators were enlisted men,
who needed a GCT only 110 (slightly above average) to attend
navigation school.

vince norris








Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/15/03 8:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

The highest math skills were needed by the Navigators.

Art, if I may jump in here again, surely you know that's an
exaggeration.

Celestial navigation requires no math skills beyond the ability to
read a table and do simple arithmetic--the arithmetic every kid learns
by the time he gets to eighth grade. It requires no knowledge of
"higher math." No differential or integral calculus, or simultaneous
equations, or for that matter, even how to do square roots.

I went through navy flight training from 1949 to 1951. At that time,
at least, the navy had no separate training for navigators; all
midshipmen and navcads in multi-engine flight training were taught
celestial navigation and it was assumed they would serve as navigators
until they worked their way up to copilot.

I received so many hours of celestial navigation training that when I
returned to the University of Illinois to complete my undergrad
program, I was awarded 30 semester-hour credits of celestial
navigation! That is the equivalent of a full, two semester college
program. As a result, I was able to receive my bachelor's degree a
full year early.

So I can say, agian, that celestial navigation requires no math
skills bryond the ability to read a table and do simple arithmetic.

All the difficult math was done by those who prepared the tables,

We had to DERIVE the tables just to get through cadet school. Those comfortable
with numbers could do it in the time allowed., Those not comfortable with
numbers who couldn't make the time requirements washed out. How do you feel
about having a navigator on your crew who was not comfortable with numbers? Or
how about one who took so damned long to do an HO-216 you weren't there any
more?.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

from 1949 to 1951. At that time, at least, the navy had no separate training
for navigators; all midshipmen and navcads in multi-engine flight training were
taught celestial navigation

My 1953-1954 Pensacola memory exactly. The additional nav (including
celestial) and carrier ops probably explain why Navy cadets took 1.5 years to
graduate while the AF people did it in one. (Either that or fundamental
sloth/stupidity.)

Quent

Quent

From: vincent p. norris

I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II

I found one stray figure that might be useful: in 1944 the AAFTC trained
80,693 pilots. I believe that was the peak year. As an item of interest, in
1946, it trained 344 pilots.


Chris Mark

"Chris Mark" wrote

From: vincent p. norris

I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II

I found one stray figure that might be useful: in 1944 the AAFTC trained
80,693 pilots. I believe that was the peak year. As an item of interest,
in
1946, it trained 344 pilots.

Training figures during the WWII era (1939-1945) for the Air Force:

Pilots
-------------------------------
233,198 Primary with 88,279 (~28%) failures*
193,440 Advanced with (~13%) 28,790 (~13%) failures
108,337 Transition with 7,474 (~7%) failures.

Assuming everyone went Primary, Advanced, Transition (I'd *guess*
that's true but someone who knows is welcome to correct the
assumption), that's a total failure rate of about 39%.

Bombardiers
----------------------------------
28,361 total with 3,423 (~11%) failures**

Navigation
-----------------------------------
56,119 total with 10,822 (~16%) failures***

Bombardier/Navigation
------------------------------------
28,480 total with 3,533 (~11%) failures****

Gunners
------------------------------------
309,236 total with 26,815 (~8%) failures*****

*all failures includes training deaths
** includes Precision, Instructor, and Refresher courses
*** includes Celestial, Dead Reckoning, Instructor, and Refresher
**** includes Bombardier/Navigation, Bombardier DR & D8 Navigation
***** includes enlisted, officers, and instructors