An aeroplane that can stand still in air

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:gWEKb.302034$_M.1722533@attbi_s54...
"robert arndt" wrote...

As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
(briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

Virtually ANY high-performance airplane can "stand still in air" for a
brief
instant -- just pull it up into the vertical and reduce the power. It
will
eventually stop, just prior to a brief tail slide and eventual "falling
leaf"
maneuver. I've done it many times in the A-4 and A-6, and once in an
F/A-18D.


AKA a stall turn

Keith

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:ciHKb.145472$VB2.551600@attbi_s51...
"Dave Holford" wrote...

Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
stall turn.

...and I can't remember ever performing a "stall turn." Please describe
the
maneuver and its parameters.


http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfartic...g/v8-2-39.html

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"John R Weiss" wrote:

What is a "stall turn"?

Pull up into a vertical climb in a light aircraft and you'll
soon find out

Pull up into a vertical climb in the (tailless) type of aircraft
I happen to fly and you'll probably die. Here is a horrific
little video that illustrates exactly what I mean:

http://www.pegasus-usa.com/tech/tumble.mpg

(Play it several times in slow motion and just imagine what
was going through the doomed pilot's mind at the time!)

A "stall turn" to me is a hammerhead stall (we can't perform
those either, without either dying or firing the ballistic chute).
Without a rudder, the closest thing to a hammerhead stall that
I can safely perform in the type of airplane I fly is a wingover.
But since a true wingover is a 90-deg. climbing turn followed
by a 90-deg. descending turn resulting in a 180-deg. change
in direction, technically I perform "wangs" rather than wingovers.
Trikes can't perform true wingovers because bottom rudder
is needed at the top of the climbing turn to keep the aircraft
coordinated.

In steady-state winds aloft, flying stationary (relative to the
ground), or even backwards and sideways is no problem,
however.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote...

-- just pull it up into the vertical and reduce the power. It will
eventually stop, just prior to a brief tail slide and eventual "falling leaf"
maneuver.

AKA a stall turn

OK. First time I've heard it called that.

Looking at the fly-imaa.org article you cited, "stall turn" is another name for
a hammerhead stall (a term with which I'm familiar). Note that in a hammerhead,
the airplane should NOT go to 0 forward airspeed -- it needs airspeed to
maintain controllability. To wit, " The second thing that can cause a flop
over, especially in trainers or slow planes, is not enough speed when you put in
the rudder." (from that article). So, the airplane does NOT "stand still in
air" per the OP's question. It only appears to stand still. Admittedly, some
aerobats do tail-slide maneuvers, during which the airplane will briefly pass
through 0 airspeed.

"Ian" wrote in message ...
robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Chandresh Prakash" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?

Harrier/AV8

I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?

No

Keith

As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
(briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

Rob

pendent mode
Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????

/pendent mode

Hey moron, use your brain. Look at the title of the thread and first
sentence of the original poster's question!
Keith isn't saying that the Su-30 can't stop in midair, he's saying no
non-VSTOL/VTOL aircraft can stop in midair. Read his reply for
confirmation.
Yet amazingly both the Su-35 and Su-37 have DEMONSTRATED a dead stop
(no forward airspeed at all) in midair during highly complex manouvers
that only their aircraft can perform.
The F/A-18 might have a brief pause trying to emulate that manouver,
but it cannot dead stop like the Su-35 and TVC Su-37.
You want me to mail you the video?

Rob

"John R Weiss" wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote...

Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily

What is a "stall turn"?

An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.

Of course...they stall at their design stall speed (which varies
with payload, fuel weight and flight configuration). Damned few
have a stall speed under 100 knots.
--

-Gord.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:ciHKb.145472$VB2.551600@attbi_s51...
"Dave Holford" wrote...

Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
stall turn.

...and I can't remember ever performing a "stall turn." Please describe
the
maneuver and its parameters.


http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfartic...g/v8-2-39.html

Keith

Well, guess I'm wrong yet again...never did hear that maneuver
called a 'stall turn' although it possibly was. Seems like a poor
description though.

I'd think that a 'stall' would be described as that condition
where the smooth flow of the slipstream becomes detached from the
upper surface of an a/c's wing and the wing loses lift. NOT when
the a/c STOPS in midair.

Seems to me that we should ask our resident expert in things
aerobatic. What say Dudley?.
--

-Gord.

"Jarg" wrote in message
.. .
I saw this airplane hover in place at an airshow at Moffet Field:

http://www.worldairshownews.com/WAN/...n98/raven.html

I read that it crashed a few weeks later.

From the man's own web site:
"The Oracle Turbo Raven, powered by a 750 HP Pratt & Whitney PT6A-25C, was
the first airshow airplane to have a positive thrust-to-weight ratio. With a
performance weight of 1,900 pounds and 2,800 pounds of thrust, the Turbo
Raven could climb straight up, stop in the vertical line, and then
accelerate straight up again. Another of Wayne's favorite maneuvers in the
Oracle Turbo Raven was to power out of a flat spin without lowering the nose
below the horizon. On January 20, 1999, Wayne established a world record for
all propeller driven airplanes by going from brake release to 3,000 meters
in one minute and nine seconds. In April of 1999, flying a G-202, Wayne
broke his own world record for inverted flat spins by taking the world
record up to 78 turns. (Wayne asks anyone wishing to break this record to
add his or her turns to the top and not the bottom of this maneuver.) During
the EAA convention in Oshkosh on July 30,1999, Wayne established a new
time-to-climb record to 6,000 meters in the Oracle Turbo Raven with a time
of three minutes and six seconds.

"On October 3, 1999, one year to the day that the Oracle Turbo Raven had
been on the airshow circuit, Wayne was involved in a tragic accident while
performing in the Turbo Raven at the California International Airshow. The
airplane was a total loss and Wayne sustained a broken back and other
injuries. Thanks to the preparedness of the show's emergency personnel and
the magnificent staff of the Salinas Valley Memorial Hospital, Wayne made a
complete recovery. "

78 turns in an inverted flat spin?


Jarg

"Chandresh Prakash" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.

78 turns in an inverted flat spin?

Most people would call that 'dying'.

Gordon

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
(briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

I've seen the Su-37 do it at Farnborough in 1996. It stood there on it's
tail stationary for a good 20 seconds before rolling over backwards barely
within it's own length and then powering up vertically. Very impressive
indeed.

Si