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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
In article
, frank wrote: Actually I was thinking of what they do at the launch pad during launch, not the tiles on the shuttle Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds that occur. Makes pad much more reusable. I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes entire complex much more reusable. Nope -- Massive water infusion was used on the Saturn V, IB, Ic, etc. It helped cool the exhaust gases that impinged on the deflectors. A direct hit from a rocket motor exhaust of that size would make short work of any material you could use. As it was, there was still plenty od flame damage to go around. If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the standard shots from NASA and main engine start. Awesome. Lots of plumbing though. -- Remove _'s from email address to talk to me. |
#2
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
In article
318346c5-4734-47d5-9883-9ee8872cc6a7@c3 g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, frank wrote: On Dec 10, 11:58*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas- wrote: In article 93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2 5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com, *Richard wrote: On Dec 9, 11:23*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas- wrote: In article 3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2 1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, *Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Use what NASA uses for the shuttle? Wouldn't cost that much at all Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a wrench on the coating it would be great. Actually I was thinking of what they do at the launch pad during launch, not the tiles on the shuttle Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds that occur. Makes pad much more reusable. I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes entire complex much more reusable. If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the standard shots from NASA and main engine start. Awesome. Lots of plumbing though. That's why I suggested it. Of course the massive steam wasn't in my thinking when I did. I suppose the idea of running cold water under the deck to absorb the heat would be best, might even be able to use the heat for something (pre-heating the water to be desalinated?) |
#3
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:42:41 -0800 (PST), frank
wrote: On Dec 10, 11:58Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas- wrote: In article 93ee764a-0400-499b-b519-37e47ef04416@v2 5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com, Â*Richard wrote: On Dec 9, 11:23Â*pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" atlas- wrote: In article 3f72b032-2be2-4377-a180-01d7a81404fe@d2 1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, Â*Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Use what NASA uses for the shuttle? Wouldn't cost that much at all Yeah except for not walking, parking, raining, hailing or dropping a wrench on the coating it would be great. Actually I was thinking of what they do at the launch pad during launch, not the tiles on the shuttle Ever see photos of the pad, there is a large water tower near it. I think 3 seconds before launch, when engines start up, there is a water infusion into the bucket that thrust goes into. Think multiple streams of water. Sucker lights up, hits the water, massive steam and thrust go out the channels away from the launch pad. That's the big clouds that occur. Makes pad much more reusable. I think Shuttle was first system to use that, could be wrong. Makes entire complex much more reusable. If you can get some old Shuttle launch footage, that's one of the standard shots from NASA and main engine start. Awesome. Lots of plumbing though. Imagine being the pilot taking off through all that steam. Or landing, when visibility suddenly drops to zero as you come over the pad. Now imagine again, this time remembering that there's solid lumps of ship only a few yards from your rotors. . . A strong refractory coating seems much more attractive. |
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 9, 11:22*pm, Mike wrote:
StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. |
#5
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
David E. Powell wrote:
On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck vehicles. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#6
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
"Dan" wrote in message ... David E. Powell wrote: On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck vehicles. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Every LHD comes with an unlimited supply of water that can be used for cooling. Pump the water into a double skinned section of the deck (analogous to a "wet wing" aircraft fuel tank) designated for use by the problematic aircraft. Cooling water directly on the deck surface will cause other problems - steam and hot spray getting blasted in all directions is not a good idea. |
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 10, 2:23*am, Dan wrote:
David E. Powell wrote: On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. * *It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck vehicles. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Use carbon composite plates. They're the materials on the wingtips (not the infamous bottom that killed Columbia). Those are more heat resistant, and less brittle if I'm not mistaken. |
#8
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
Dan wrote:
David E. Powell wrote: On Dec 9, 11:22 pm, Mike wrote: StrategyPage.com December 2, 2009 The Melting Deck Plates Muddle by James Dunnigan Earlier this year, the U.S. Navy discovered that the heat from the MV-22's gas turbine engines, which blow their exhaust right on to the deck of the LHD while waiting to take off, caused high enough temperatures to the steel under the deck plates, to possibly warp the understructure. This was already a known potential problem with the new F-35B vertical takeoff jet fighter. So now the Navy has two hot new aircraft that require an innovative solution to the melting deck problem. The Navy also discovered that the exhaust heat problem varied in intensity between different classes of helicopter carriers (each with a different deck design.) The Navy is looking for a solution that will not require extensive modification of current carrier decks. This includes a lot of decks, both the eleven large carriers, and the ten smaller LHAs and LHDs. This is shaping up as another multi-billion dollar "oops" moment, as the melting deck problem was never brought up during the long development of either aircraft. Previously, the Harrier was the only aircraft to put serious amounts of heat on the carrier deck, but not enough to do damage. But when you compare the Harrier engine with those on the V-22 and F-35B, you can easily see that there is a lot more heat coming out of the two more recent aircraft. Someone should have done the math before it became a real problem. Make a designated VTOL area and add shuttle style tiles there. It wouldn't stand up to mechanical abuse. While the tiles will withstand heat they would crumble under the weight of taxiing aircraft and deck vehicles. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre. Continuous seawater irrigation seems like the best option to me. |
#9
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
In article ,
Alan Dicey wrote: Indeed. The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. They would be crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre. Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket type material. Blending something like that in with non-skid coating shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation. John -- John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/ |
#10
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The Melting Deck Plates Muddle - V-22 on LHD deck....
On Dec 10, 2:59*pm, (John Clear) wrote:
In article , Alan Dicey wrote: Indeed. *The shuttle tiles have astonishing insulation properties, but are composed of 10% silica fibres, 90% air with a borosilicate glass coating and have no load-bearing capacity to speak of. *They would be crushed by the first person to walk on them, never mind an aircraft tyre.. Most of the white areas on the top of the shuttle are nomex blanket type material. *Blending something like that in with non-skid coating shouldn't be too hard to do, and provide enough thermal insulation. John -- John Clear - * * * * * * * * * * * *http://www.clear-prop.org/ Still not really durable enough to handle aircraft weight. Was less heat resistant than bottom portion. Think of it this way, bottom part gets really hot on reentry, shields top part. You could see some scorch marks on most of the post landing photos. Looks like little black scuff marks on foreward part near wing. Probably looks like a back to the drawing board moment. Oh, hey, anybody figure out we're landing on a carrier and we have some really high exhaust temps.... Remember the old drawing that went around what aerodynamicist built, weapons guys, all that, and what the customer wanted. Nothing changes. |
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