See You : "Task Not Finished"

Nice flight.

It appears you rounded all the turnpoints, and in fact SeeYou says that
you did, but also says the task wasn't finished. One of the SeeYou guys
may have to explain this.

Does your triangle meet the 28% FAI requirement? It looks like the third
leg is a bit short. But that doesn't explain why SeeYou says you didn't
complete the task.



Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
On Nov 10, 4:45 pm, Bernie wrote:
Me again!

Actually I looked at your initial post and see that what you declared
IS the task See You knows about (571.0 Km triangle). I thought you
had more TP's for a while there.

But you clearly didn't go through the FAI sectors, you certainly went
beyond them substantially....... but thats not the same as through
them!

And if you zoom in, you'll see that you didn't get any closer to the
apex of the Ely AP sector than the photo landing point in your orbit
to the North East.

So See You is working as designed I'd say.......... and you either
have to try harder to get the sectors or just use the Edit/Optmize/
Copy process to get your distance.

Regards, Bernie.

Okay. I'm obviously mistaken about the nature of the FAI Sector. I
had believed the legs were infinitely long, and haven't found a
reference in the FAI Sporting code that specifies any size for the
sector. Doesn't mean it's not there, just means I haven't found it
yet. If you have a reference, please post it. I didn't claim the
flight for anything but OLC, but would hate to be attempting a badge
fligth and find out only after the flight that I'd blown it!

Thanks
Jim

On Nov 10, 6:41*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
Okay. *I'm obviously mistaken about the nature of the FAI Sector. *I
had believed the legs were infinitely long, and haven't found a
reference in the FAI Sporting code that specifies any size for the
sector. *Doesn't mean it's not there, just means I haven't found it
yet. *If you have a reference, please post it. *I didn't claim the
flight for anything but OLC, but would hate to be attempting a badge
fligth and find out only after the flight that I'd blown it!

Go to Options-Observation Zone
then modify waypoint radius to 10 miles and your flight will become
valid.

The FAI sector is defined in photographic terms, so although it's
"infinite", in practical terms it needs to have some limit, and in the
old days it was the resolution of the camera and visibility of the
turnpoint.

If the sector were really infinite, then it would wrap around the
globe such that any declaration could be completed by making a pattern
flight, since one would be in ALL the OZs immediately after release.
Not quite what was intended.

It appears the authors of SeeYou decided to implement the OZ as a
quarter circle with limited, user adjustable radius. I don't see any
problem with extending this radius to a fairly large size in order to
capture a flight such as yours.

Consider a 50+ km diameter thunderstorm sitting on top of the
turnpoint. If using a camera to document the flight, you might just
be SOL due to not being abole to see any landmarks at or near the
turnpoint. B ut with GPS, you just circumnavigate the storm, and
although you may fly several hundred km farther than the declared
distance, at lest you are able to claim the declaration.

-Tom

On Nov 10, 6:13*pm, 5Z wrote:
On Nov 10, 6:41*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Okay. *I'm obviously mistaken about the nature of the FAI Sector. *I
had believed the legs were infinitely long, and haven't found a
reference in the FAI Sporting code that specifies any size for the
sector. *Doesn't mean it's not there, just means I haven't found it
yet. *If you have a reference, please post it. *I didn't claim the
flight for anything but OLC, but would hate to be attempting a badge
fligth and find out only after the flight that I'd blown it!

Go to Options-Observation Zone
then modify waypoint radius to 10 miles and your flight will become
valid.

The FAI sector is defined in photographic terms, so although it's
"infinite", in practical terms it needs to have some limit, and in the
old days it was the resolution of the camera and visibility of the
turnpoint.

If the sector were really infinite, then it would wrap around the
globe such that any declaration could be completed by making a pattern
flight, since one would be in ALL the OZs immediately after release.
Not quite what was intended.

It appears the authors of SeeYou decided to implement the OZ as a
quarter circle with limited, user adjustable radius. *I don't see any
problem with extending this radius to a fairly large size in order to
capture a flight such as yours.

Consider a 50+ km diameter thunderstorm sitting on top of the
turnpoint. *If using a camera to document the flight, you might just
be SOL due to not being abole to see any landmarks at or near the
turnpoint. *B ut with GPS, you just circumnavigate the storm, and
although you may fly several hundred km farther than the declared
distance, at lest you are able to claim the declaration.

-Tom

Thanks Tom!
That was indeed the problem. There's still a ton I don't understand
(like why there is a maximum altitude in the observation zone) but
that's one thing cleared up!
Gotta' love the internet for being able to contact so many people.
There's almost always someone who has an answer!
Thanks again!

On Nov 10, 6:09*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
Nice flight.

It appears you rounded all the turnpoints, and in fact SeeYou says that
you did, but also says the task wasn't finished. *One of the SeeYou guys
may have to explain this.

Does your triangle meet the 28% FAI requirement? It looks like the third
leg is a bit short. *But that doesn't explain why SeeYou says you didn't
complete the task.
Thanks Greg, it was a pretty awesome day! The flight did meet the 28%
rule, I spent a couple hours the night before laying out the task.
The OLC FAI triangle came in at 625 kilometers. The hard part about
laying out an FAI triangle around here is staying out of Restricted
Airspace. It would be REALLY hard to stay completely out of all MOA's
on a triangle.

On Nov 10, 6:24*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
On Nov 10, 6:13*pm, 5Z wrote:



On Nov 10, 6:41*pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Okay. *I'm obviously mistaken about the nature of the FAI Sector. *I
had believed the legs were infinitely long, and haven't found a
reference in the FAI Sporting code that specifies any size for the
sector. *Doesn't mean it's not there, just means I haven't found it
yet. *If you have a reference, please post it. *I didn't claim the
flight for anything but OLC, but would hate to be attempting a badge
fligth and find out only after the flight that I'd blown it!

Go to Options-Observation Zone
then modify waypoint radius to 10 miles and your flight will become
valid.

The FAI sector is defined in photographic terms, so although it's
"infinite", in practical terms it needs to have some limit, and in the
old days it was the resolution of the camera and visibility of the
turnpoint.

If the sector were really infinite, then it would wrap around the
globe such that any declaration could be completed by making a pattern
flight, since one would be in ALL the OZs immediately after release.
Not quite what was intended.

It appears the authors of SeeYou decided to implement the OZ as a
quarter circle with limited, user adjustable radius. *I don't see any
problem with extending this radius to a fairly large size in order to
capture a flight such as yours.

Consider a 50+ km diameter thunderstorm sitting on top of the
turnpoint. *If using a camera to document the flight, you might just
be SOL due to not being abole to see any landmarks at or near the
turnpoint. *B ut with GPS, you just circumnavigate the storm, and
although you may fly several hundred km farther than the declared
distance, at lest you are able to claim the declaration.

-Tom

Thanks Tom!
That was indeed the problem. *There's still a ton I don't understand
(like why there is a maximum altitude in the observation zone) but
that's one thing cleared up!
Gotta' love the internet for being able to contact so many people.
There's almost always someone who has an answer!
Thanks again!

Tom beat me to the punch on the OZ radius. The only reason I can think
of for the height limit is for competition flights where start
cylinders have a ceiling. My guess is it was just easier to include it
for all waypoints as I don't know of any rules that require it.

Nine Bravo

At 05:54 11 November 2008, wrote:
On Nov 10, 6:24=A0pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
On Nov 10, 6:13=A0pm, 5Z wrote:



On Nov 10, 6:41=A0pm, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Okay. =A0I'm obviously mistaken about the nature of the FAI
Sector.
=
=A0I
had believed the legs were infinitely long, and haven't found a
reference in the FAI Sporting code that specifies any size for the
sector. =A0Doesn't mean it's not there, just means I haven't
found
it
yet. =A0If you have a reference, please post it. =A0I didn't
claim
th=
e
flight for anything but OLC, but would hate to be attempting a
badge
fligth and find out only after the flight that I'd blown it!

Go to Options-Observation Zone
then modify waypoint radius to 10 miles and your flight will become
valid.

The FAI sector is defined in photographic terms, so although it's
"infinite", in practical terms it needs to have some limit, and in
the
old days it was the resolution of the camera and visibility of the
turnpoint.

If the sector were really infinite, then it would wrap around the
globe such that any declaration could be completed by making a
pattern
flight, since one would be in ALL the OZs immediately after release.
Not quite what was intended.

It appears the authors of SeeYou decided to implement the OZ as a
quarter circle with limited, user adjustable radius. =A0I don't see
any
problem with extending this radius to a fairly large size in order
to
capture a flight such as yours.

Consider a 50+ km diameter thunderstorm sitting on top of the
turnpoint. =A0If using a camera to document the flight, you might
just
be SOL due to not being abole to see any landmarks at or near the
turnpoint. =A0B ut with GPS, you just circumnavigate the storm, and
although you may fly several hundred km farther than the declared
distance, at lest you are able to claim the declaration.

-Tom

Thanks Tom!
That was indeed the problem. =A0There's still a ton I don't
understand
(like why there is a maximum altitude in the observation zone) but
that's one thing cleared up!
Gotta' love the internet for being able to contact so many people.
There's almost always someone who has an answer!
Thanks again!

Tom beat me to the punch on the OZ radius. The only reason I can think
of for the height limit is for competition flights where start
cylinders have a ceiling. My guess is it was just easier to include it
for all waypoints as I don't know of any rules that require it.

Nine Bravo

FAI GP rules allow the task setter to set a maximum height for a turn
point, presumably so that spectators may watch from the ground as lunatics
hurtle overhead.

Jim

I don't think the problem is with Seeyou, I think the problem is with your
302. I often get a similar result from Seeyou using a 302. The problem is
with the engine noise detector; despite having a pure sailplane the 302 is
too sensitive and picks up noise that is assumed to be engine noise by
Seeyou. Next time you open one of your flights in seeyou, right click,
select flight properties and check pure glider.
There is a modification that Dickie Feakes (UK) does to the 302 to solve
this problem; maybe you have someone in the US that can do the same.


At 22:44 10 November 2008, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
When I look at my flights in See You, it always tells me I haven't
completed the task. I don't know if it's because See You wants me to
fly cylinders, or of the ZERO entries in my Takeoff and Landing
Coordinates are the issue. Here's what shows in the declaration:

C0000000N00000000WTAKEOFF
C3803480N11705370W*TONOPAH
C3918500N11450510WEly AP
C3924400N11656600WAustin6
C3803480N11705370W*TONOPAH
C0000000N00000000WLANDING

In case anyone is bored and feeling like digging into it, this is the
flight:

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...Id=-1674917029

If the issue is the TAKEOFF and LANDING coordinates, I don't know how
to get them in the 302A declaration. Need help dispelling my
ignorance.

TIA

Hi,

Cambridge Aero Instruments can do the 302 Engine Noise Level upgrade here in
the USA. All new 302 ENL units built starting around Jan. 2008 have the
hardware change that fixes the previous problem with the ENL recording. If
you own an ENL version built before that I highly recommend sending it to
Cambridge for upgrade. www.cambridge-aero.com.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"Mark Dickson" wrote in message
...
I don't think the problem is with Seeyou, I think the problem is with your
302. I often get a similar result from Seeyou using a 302. The problem
is
with the engine noise detector; despite having a pure sailplane the 302 is
too sensitive and picks up noise that is assumed to be engine noise by
Seeyou. Next time you open one of your flights in seeyou, right click,
select flight properties and check pure glider.
There is a modification that Dickie Feakes (UK) does to the 302 to solve
this problem; maybe you have someone in the US that can do the same.


At 22:44 10 November 2008, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
When I look at my flights in See You, it always tells me I haven't
completed the task. I don't know if it's because See You wants me to
fly cylinders, or of the ZERO entries in my Takeoff and Landing
Coordinates are the issue. Here's what shows in the declaration:

C0000000N00000000WTAKEOFF
C3803480N11705370W*TONOPAH
C3918500N11450510WEly AP
C3924400N11656600WAustin6
C3803480N11705370W*TONOPAH
C0000000N00000000WLANDING

In case anyone is bored and feeling like digging into it, this is the
flight:

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...Id=-1674917029

If the issue is the TAKEOFF and LANDING coordinates, I don't know how
to get them in the 302A declaration. Need help dispelling my
ignorance.

TIA

No Mark, if you look at the noise trace it is reasonable, and at the
'photo landing' time noise is relatively low. The problem is clearly
the setting of the TP zone radius, and the 'photo landing' is at the
closest approach to the waypoint, since the flight path never enters the
zone within the radius set.

In SeeYou, go into Edit/Flight Properties/Observation Zone. Change the
two waypoint radii from 3km to 30km. The flight is now analysed as
completed at a speed of 82.58 kph.

Interestingly, the analysis also shows that every thermal was turning
right.

I have seen traces where SeeYou interprets a noise peak (due to opening
the DV panel for extra ventilation) as an engine run, but this isn't one
of them.

At 11:00 11 November 2008, Mark Dickson wrote:
I don't think the problem is with Seeyou, I think the problem is with
your
302. I often get a similar result from Seeyou using a 302. The problem
is
with the engine noise detector; despite having a pure sailplane the 302
is
too sensitive and picks up noise that is assumed to be engine noise by
Seeyou. Next time you open one of your flights in seeyou, right click,
select flight properties and check pure glider.
There is a modification that Dickie Feakes (UK) does to the 302 to solve
this problem; maybe you have someone in the US that can do the same.

I'm wondering if SeeYou is confused by the fact that the flight wraps
around midnight (UTC) and apparently starts after it has ended.

When I run animation against the relevant IGC file its starts at the
launch time but when it reached midnight UTC (part way along the second
leg) it thinks the flight has ended and jumps back to the launch.

Looks like this could be a SeeYou bug - even if it's not the root cause
of the original landout problem.