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In message - "David Pugh"
-cay writes: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message news The missions had to be flown. They weren't flown from Israel. Part of being a reliable ally is providing bases and flight rights. Israel wasn't useful. As I recall, the primary reason they were not flown from Israel was that the US didn't want to fly them from Israel (launching attacks from Israel against a Muslim country -- even if flown by the US -- could have destabilized the coalition). In fact, US made every effort not to make public ANY help from Israel in fighting against muslims. We wouldn't know that US B-52s were protected (among other things) by Israeli made air-launched decoys if there wasn't a small parachute found in Baghdad with "TAAS Jerusalem" printed on it. Needless to say, this was only briefly mentioned in the news and never repeated again. ************************************************** **************************** * Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: * ************************************************** **************************** NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ | | O / _/ / | | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!! | | | | | | | /O\ | _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/ | * / \ o ++ O ++ o | | | | | \ \_) \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \ | \_| |
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In message , JGB
writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... By that argument, Israel would never have accepted the M60 tank for frontline use, let alone kept it this long (to say nothing of the upgunned Shermans...) Again, the history flatly contradicts your claims. I thought that in '67 Israel's frontline MBT was the British Centurion. Precisely. There's a good argument that the best MBT in the world in 1967, would have been a Chieftain with a reliable engine (Something the Israelis have always shown talent for). Particularly since the Chieftain replaced the Centurion... Looking at the design choices the Israelis made with the Merkava (needs excellent protection, lots of ammunition, top speed doesn't matter too much but does need to be able to cross bad ground) the Chief would have been a much better bet than the Centurion. Certainly supplementing them with US M60s gets you very little: it's not a _bad_ tank but it's far from "the best in the world". Israel didn't choose the best, it accepted what it could get and then trained the crews well. -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam |
#77
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In article ,
(Kevin Brooks) writes: (Peter Stickney) wrote in message ... In article , (JGB) writes: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , JGB writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... No nation is immune to the "home field advantage" argument. In most cases, I agree, but with Israel NOT when it comes to such decisive weapons as air to air missiles, radars, and the like .... ISrael generally has to fight alone and MUST win its major wars or lose the country. ISraeli pilot MUST have equipment second to none on the planet, or possibly lose the country, no matter who manufactures it. By that argument, Israel would never have accepted the M60 tank for frontline use, let alone kept it this long (to say nothing of the upgunned Shermans...) Again, the history flatly contradicts your claims. I thought that in '67 Israel's frontline MBT was the British Centurion. It was a mix. Centurions, many of them upgunned to 105mm L68 guns, ex-FRG M-48s, and uprated Shermans, for the MBTs. AMX-13s for light tanks. Some AMX 105mm SP howitzers, a bunch of M7 105mm SP Hows, picked up from junkyards around the world, and M3 (WHite Halftrack) APCs, for the Mech forces. The Infantry folks rode in whatever they could get, ranging from taxicaps to semitrailers to buses, and had various flavors of 105mm and 155m towed artillery. The ex-German tanks wer kinda purchesed in a backdoor manner, too. But didn't the Syrians use the old German Panther as late as 56 (if not 67)? Not Panthers, but Panzer IVs, and Jagdpanzer IVs. Reportedly, some were still in service in 1967. I don't recall Syria having any part of the 1956 war, other than providing a haven for the Egyptian Air Force. Until the attempted forming of the United Arab Republic with Egypt, Syria was pretty much too poor to buy weapons, and not as attractive a Soviet client as the Egyptians. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
#78
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(Peter Stickney) wrote in message ...
In article , (Kevin Brooks) writes: (Peter Stickney) wrote in message ... In article , (JGB) writes: "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... In message , JGB writes "Paul J. Adam" wrote in message ... No nation is immune to the "home field advantage" argument. In most cases, I agree, but with Israel NOT when it comes to such decisive weapons as air to air missiles, radars, and the like .... ISrael generally has to fight alone and MUST win its major wars or lose the country. ISraeli pilot MUST have equipment second to none on the planet, or possibly lose the country, no matter who manufactures it. By that argument, Israel would never have accepted the M60 tank for frontline use, let alone kept it this long (to say nothing of the upgunned Shermans...) Again, the history flatly contradicts your claims. I thought that in '67 Israel's frontline MBT was the British Centurion. It was a mix. Centurions, many of them upgunned to 105mm L68 guns, ex-FRG M-48s, and uprated Shermans, for the MBTs. AMX-13s for light tanks. Some AMX 105mm SP howitzers, a bunch of M7 105mm SP Hows, picked up from junkyards around the world, and M3 (WHite Halftrack) APCs, for the Mech forces. The Infantry folks rode in whatever they could get, ranging from taxicaps to semitrailers to buses, and had various flavors of 105mm and 155m towed artillery. The ex-German tanks wer kinda purchesed in a backdoor manner, too. But didn't the Syrians use the old German Panther as late as 56 (if not 67)? Not Panthers, but Panzer IVs, and Jagdpanzer IVs. Reportedly, some were still in service in 1967. I don't recall Syria having any part of the 1956 war, other than providing a haven for the Egyptian Air Force. Until the attempted forming of the United Arab Republic with Egypt, Syria was pretty much too poor to buy weapons, and not as attractive a Soviet client as the Egyptians. Thanks. So the Israelis were not the only military paupers in the region, at least until sometime after 56. One has to wonder if the Syrian PzKw IV's ever engaged Israeli Super Shermans in 67 or during the years immediately prior. Brooks |
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Kevin Brooks wrote: SNIP Thanks. So the Israelis were not the only military paupers in the region, at least until sometime after 56. One has to wonder if the Syrian PzKw IV's ever engaged Israeli Super Shermans in 67 or during the years immediately prior. Brooks "The Tanks of Tammuz" Shabtai Teveth talks about the Centurions firing on Syrian Panzer tanks in Nov 1964 (p.53 & 75). The second Nukheila incident... platoon of Centurions was supposed to support a platoon of Shermans. The Shermans were to engage the Syrian "old German panzers" at about 800m... A quick read indicates the Shermans didn't take out the panzers (one failed to make the firing line) and the Centurions pounced (on the chance to redeem themselves after the poor showing on the first Nukheila incident) quickly destroying both panzers (which IIRC were dug in on the Golan heights, the Israelis shooting up hill...) |
#80
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In article ,
(Kevin Brooks) writes: (Peter Stickney) wrote in message ... Not Panthers, but Panzer IVs, and Jagdpanzer IVs. Reportedly, some were still in service in 1967. I don't recall Syria having any part of the 1956 war, other than providing a haven for the Egyptian Air Force. Until the attempted forming of the United Arab Republic with Egypt, Syria was pretty much too poor to buy weapons, and not as attractive a Soviet client as the Egyptians. Thanks. So the Israelis were not the only military paupers in the region, at least until sometime after 56. One has to wonder if the Syrian PzKw IV's ever engaged Israeli Super Shermans in 67 or during the years immediately prior. It wasn't until the 1960s, and the widespread Nationalization of the Oil Industry, that the various National Governments in the region could afford much in the way of weapons. The '56 war, adn the intervening time between then & '67 saw teh most amazing collection of castoff & one-offs. (Egyptian Shermans with the FL-10 turret off of an AMX-13, anyone?) Of course, Israel wasn;t the only place in the region where things were happening. There was, of course, the very nasty war that the French were fighting in Algeria, and the neighboring Arab countries were involved to some extent. The Iraqis made a couple of attempts to take Kuwait, one of which was staved off by the rapid introsuction of a British force of Paratroopers, the Royal Tanks, and the RAF Transport Command's Mibile Strike Force of Hunters. We ended up deploying an Airborne Task Force, and a Marine Regiment to Lebanon, (Some nice film of the Marine Landing Craft storming ashore, with the Marines being met by women in bikinis and Ice Cream vendors came out of this. All invasions should work out that way. Oh, yeah, and how Lebanon has changed) The Jordanians, with King Hussein's remarkable diplomacy, managed to stay aloof, more or less, and build up a small but very professional Army and Air Force. Figuring out Orbats & TO&E data must have driven the S-2 folks nuts. -- Pete Stickney A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures. -- Daniel Webster |
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