Why is Soaring declining

Bill Daniels wrote:
Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market. In fact, I think
the present glider market is about right. There is a market for
state-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing market in used
gliders.

A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass glider with spectacular
performance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such a bargain on the used
market if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for an astronomical sum
when it was new. We need to stop knocking competition, it creates a market
of really neat used gliders. When I started, if you wanted a high
performance glider, you had to build it. By comparison, this market is
nirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't the real problem.

One of the many problems that does need attention is training costs. Rental
and airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than a private power
certificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more hassle to get glider
training because of the short flights and long waits. For anyone interested
in aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for soaring or another
aviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider training costs,
particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look reasonable by
comparison.

Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging for rentals or air tows.
It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's just that those reasons
are not apparent to the newcomer.

I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard look at the training
"experience" from the students point of view to see if there isn't something
that could be done to make it more attractive. The first thing I would
suggest is to look at winch launch for training.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...

Lennie the Lurker wrote:

Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the
manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in
competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers
think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't
serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane
production is now motorized).

There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the
Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new
glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition
in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the
performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't
better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even
cheaper used gliders.

This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the
gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are
much greater than they are for sailplanes.

and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more
pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia,
and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in
part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is
becoming more acceptable.

The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the
sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders,
thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be
worthwhile.
--
-----
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA



Hi Eric

Got to second that. I really can't understand why winch is not used more, it is
cheaper, faster and in some ways safer than aerotow.

There is no comparison in terms of profitability for the club. A good winch is a
license to print money in most clubs, and a fraction of the cost for the pilots.

Even our old lump can throw 30 launches a day to 1500"+ at a cost of under $4
per launch - and make a profit doing it.

(soarski) wrote in message . com...

Guess there is a reason Lennie calls himself the Lurker. He initially
meant to
just DO that.

Ummmm, Lennie the Lurker was created specifically for good old
fashioned flame fests on alt.aviation.safety. With one thing or
another, such as the increase in spam everytime I used my real email
addy, it didn't take long before letting the spam go to the lycos box,
or at that time the Deja box, began to make sense. Since then one ISP
went belly up, another lost their news server, and my present one
never had or offered one, so Google is what's left. Makes sense to
use the Lycos addy, one click and the whole page of headers is marked
for deleting. One more and they're gone. My real email addy is my
real name, but there are five other people in this state with the same
first and last names, and if I have to change it, I won't be able to
use the other abbreviations. IT's also set up with a "reverse
killfile", if your name isn't in the book, "Delete from server."

Lennie the Lurker
President and Public Relations Officer
Whack-A-Loon, Ink.
Makers and Purveyors of Fine Quality Loon Mallets

(Marcel Duenner) wrote in message . com...

Can't quite see how, given the cloudbase at 6500ft and me at 9000ft
yesterday ridgesoaring the clouds. The beauty of it was overwhelming.
Hard to understand how anyone can desperately not want such an
experience.
And more than that - he doesn't want any one else having it, either.
OK I can understand that - it's called jealousy and is quite common.
Nothing to worry about, Lenny.

And me, not having any signatures in the logbook, while I stand around
my 27 metalworking machines, all of them paid for. (Plus about a ton
of raw material to choose from to make whatever crosses my mind.
(Lately, scale models of 16th century Russian naval cannon.))

"Wayne Paul" wrote in message ...
It should be noted that Lennie machined the nicest Schreder flap crank
system that I have ever seen I wish I had one for my HP-14!!

Lennie, if you have one sitting around, I sure would like to buy it!!
(Please contact me directly.)

I hate it when someone catches me while I'm looking at the tool catalogs!

(Email sent)

(JohnD) wrote in message . com...
Lennie,
When you choose to listen to the negative minority rather than the
postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter life. IT IS YOUR
CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to give up due to some
negative words then you SHOULD move on to something else.

Hmmm. 2 1/2 years is reasonable? Like maybe I didn't hear it the
first time? I'm also afraid that five people isn't a majority. I've
said it before, the cost was the main reason, all the mouths did was
make it that much easier to decide that it wasn't worth the cost.

You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping others with your
work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle wasn't perfect and
derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not.

First, they wouldn't deride me, and secondly, I'd make a new one
immediately. I don't blame the machine, and you can't lie to a
micrometer. Thirdly, if any did try to deride me, I'd tell them to
contact the manufacturer and pay through the nose for it.

It's quite evident that you have never worked with a german toolmaker,
you have no idea of what negative is yet. I see that a few have
understood what I'm saying, and maybe they might be able to prevent
the interest of another person from being destroyed. IF you want to
fix a situation, you look at all the reasons that it needs fixing, not
exclude the ones that might possibly include yourself. IF you're
going to exclude one, you might as well exclude them all.

Liam Finley wrote:

Pat Russell wrote in message . ..

Allow me to summarize what I have learned from this thread.
Soaring has declined for these reasons:

1. Money
2. Accessibility
3. Competition from other activities
4. Elitism

Valiant efforts have been made to lessen the impact of the first
three, but isn't it embarrassing how feebly we have tackled the
fourth, the easiest one to address?

-Pat


I think the elitism problem is largely an urban myth.

It's all too easy for unsuccesful pilots to blame elitism rather than
take a hard look at their own lack of skill, ability or perserverence.

Perhaps we should start voluntarily limiting our flights to 1 hour and
within 15 miles of the airport so the Lennies of the world needn't
feel so bad about their lack of achievement.

Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us". Nothing Lennie says could
be worse than this.
--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Lennie,

Given that you have quit gliding, why don't you quit
'contributing' to this site? I don't understand why
you persist in partaking of discussions on a subject
you are no longer interested in. However, I strongly
suspect it because you do not require assistance from
other persons in obtaining sexual gratification.

Regards,

Ben.




At 01:42 20 April 2004, Lennie The Lurker wrote:
(JohnD) wrote in message news:...
Lennie,
When you choose to listen to the negative minority
rather than the
postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter
life. IT IS YOUR
CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to
give up due to some
negative words then you SHOULD move on to something
else.

Hmmm. 2 1/2 years is reasonable? Like maybe I didn't
hear it the
first time? I'm also afraid that five people isn't
a majority. I've
said it before, the cost was the main reason, all the
mouths did was
make it that much easier to decide that it wasn't worth
the cost.

You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping
others with your
work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle
wasn't perfect and
derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not.

First, they wouldn't deride me, and secondly, I'd make
a new one
immediately. I don't blame the machine, and you can't
lie to a
micrometer. Thirdly, if any did try to deride me,
I'd tell them to
contact the manufacturer and pay through the nose for
it.

It's quite evident that you have never worked with
a german toolmaker,
you have no idea of what negative is yet. I see that
a few have
understood what I'm saying, and maybe they might be
able to prevent
the interest of another person from being destroyed.
IF you want to
fix a situation, you look at all the reasons that it
needs fixing, not
exclude the ones that might possibly include yourself.
IF you're
going to exclude one, you might as well exclude them
all.

and is this not exactly the reason why soaring is declining,
because some people within the sport cannot participate
in a reasoned argument without resorting to verbal
abuse and personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to
an opinion and to express that opinion. Who is to say
if Lennie is right or wrong? The fact is that he has
been put off gliding, for whatever reason, and if too
many people are put off then the whole sport suffers.

I have to say I agree with his reasoning up to a point,
but to be honest, not the way in which he puts that
across, but who am I to talk, I can be blunt too.

If all you have to contibute is name calling and personal
abuse then perhaps you are insecure and less sucessful
that you want to be, more to be pitied than blamed.
Try working on making yourself better not everyone
else worse. Violence of any sort is the last resort
of the imcompetent.



DAJ

At 10:00 20 April 2004, Ben Flewett wrote:
Lennie,

Given that you have quit gliding, why don't you quit
'contributing' to this site? I don't understand why
you persist in partaking of discussions on a subject
you are no longer interested in. However, I strongly
suspect it because you do not require assistance from
other persons in obtaining sexual gratification.

Regards,

Ben.




At 01:42 20 April 2004, Lennie The Lurker wrote:
(JohnD) wrote in message news:...
Lennie,
When you choose to listen to the negative minority
rather than the
postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter
life. IT IS YOUR
CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to
give up due to some
negative words then you SHOULD move on to something
else.

Hmmm. 2 1/2 years is reasonable? Like maybe I didn't
hear it the
first time? I'm also afraid that five people isn't
a majority. I've
said it before, the cost was the main reason, all the
mouths did was
make it that much easier to decide that it wasn't worth
the cost.

You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping
others with your
work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle
wasn't perfect and
derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not.

First, they wouldn't deride me, and secondly, I'd make
a new one
immediately. I don't blame the machine, and you can't
lie to a
micrometer. Thirdly, if any did try to deride me,
I'd tell them to
contact the manufacturer and pay through the nose for
it.

It's quite evident that you have never worked with
a german toolmaker,
you have no idea of what negative is yet. I see that
a few have
understood what I'm saying, and maybe they might be
able to prevent
the interest of another person from being destroyed.
IF you want to
fix a situation, you look at all the reasons that it
needs fixing, not
exclude the ones that might possibly include yourself.
IF you're
going to exclude one, you might as well exclude them
all.

I think it's worth to read what Lennie writes here (whatever style he
use). It's an unusual chance to hear about someone who decided to quit.
I felt something similar what described here before switched to my new
club... In previous club there were several "old pilots" (spent more
than 5 years at the airport) who believed they are somehow special just
because they do this sport. They also expressed that they are somehow
rule everyone who joined the club not too long ago.

/Janos

JohnD wrote:

Lennie,
When you choose to listen to the negative minority rather than the
postive majory YOU CHOOSE to live a sad and bitter life. IT IS YOUR
CHOICE. If you have no more determination than to give up due to some
negative words then you SHOULD move on to something else.

You obviously find a great deal of pleasure helping others with your
work. What if someone told you the wheelchair axle wasn't perfect and
derided you. Would you quit that too? I think not.

Since you don't soar anymore why don't you take YOUR negativity and
spite and move on, leave us alone so that we can enjoy our sport
whether we fly a 1-26, a PW5, or a Nimbus. Please do us a favor and
move on.

You will have then chosen to be a happier person. May you find peace
and happiness.

Don Johnstone writes
and is this not exactly the reason why soaring is declining, because
some people within the sport cannot participate in a reasoned argument
without resorting to verbal abuse and personal attacks.

I doubt that this has anything to do with any decline in soaring,
perceived or otherwise. The inability of some people to participate in a
reasoned argument without resorting to verbal abuse and personal attack
is generic to (multinational and cross-cultural) society as a whole, not
just the soaring fraternity.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to express that opinion. Who is
to say if Lennie is right or wrong? The fact is that he has been put
off gliding, for whatever reason, and if too many people are put off
then the whole sport suffers.

I wouldn't presume to judge Lennie, save on the basis of how he portrays
himself on this forum and in this context. But on this forum and in this
context he is both very vocal with his arguments, provocative and
emotive in the way that he expresses his opinions and oddball in that he
vehemently derides something that is a consuming passion of everybody
else here and is the whole point and subject of these forums and yet
here he still remains. You'll forgive me for commenting, but I find that
somewhat perverse (if amusing, however).

Lennie has said himself that the tag "Lennie the Lurker" was an identity
he created specifically to indulge in flame wars on a previous aviation
forum. Other Internet communities I've previously been a part of would
dismiss (and flame) such a character as a "troll". Ben Flewett felt
compelled to find an amusing way of calling him a ******. A rose by any
other name? Hardly a surprise that somebody should feel so inspired, and
hardly a reflection on the state of the global soaring community, its
decline or otherwise.

If all you have to contibute is name calling and personal abuse then
perhaps you are insecure and less sucessful that you want to be, more
to be pitied than blamed. Try working on making yourself better not
everyone else worse. Violence of any sort is the last resort of the
imcompetent.

Uh, incompetent? I'm quite sure Mr Flewett can fight his own battles,
but in any case, now who's getting personal? And, for that matter, who
the hell am I to comment on amother man's typos? :P

Newbie question of my own, just to justify this post with lip service
towards the topic in-hand - Is there hard, undisputed statistical
evidence to show that soaring is actually in decline?

It strikes me that soaring is always going to be a more specialist
pastime. Call it elitist if you will, but if you read only negative into
that then you are missing the point.

Elitism is fine, laudable even if it is an open, benevolent elitism, an
obtainable available to anybody that wants to put in the effort and
dedication required to reach the necessary standard. But not everybody
will want to do that. To others the cost and sacrifice simply wouldn't
be worth it.

Could be I'm fortunate. The club membership I've landed with have been
open, friendly, welcoming and generally tolerant of me as an incoming
newbie. However, I'll be honest and say that to me, standing around a
cold, damp airfield all day waiting for a couple of circuits with a
stranger for an instructor would be a worthwhile sacrifice on the road
to learning to soar. The fact that I've been able to do it in good
company, that I generally get more than a couple of circuits for my
labours and none of the instructors remained strangers for more than a
single launch is a bonus. I'm not complaining.

But I didn't take up gliding for the social group. I didn't do it to
make new friends and influence people. I certainly didn't do it to gain
the approval of anybody, and certainly not the approval of strangers.

I did it because hanging alone upon a thermal beneath the dewpoint with
the countryside spread out in all its summer splendour three thousand
feet below is the realisation of a lifelong dream and ambition.

If all goes to plan, I might actually achieve that this summer.

The cost of the hard work in all its forms in getting there will have
been worth it for me. Lennie made the decision that it wasnot worth it
for him, but that's cool - each to their own. There will always be a
majority of people that find the costs (financial and otherwise) of
soaring far outweigh the rewards, rewards that they not only can't even
perceive but don't want to and wouldn't see the value in anyway.

So you like blues but I like jazz? That's okay, we're both cool after
our own fashion.

I can't see gliding ever being what you'd term "mainstream". On the
other hand, that's half of the charm. So with that said, surely the
prerogative should not be a desire or argument to reverse an apparent
decline, but merely ensure that the sport and the community remains open
and accessible enough to be found by and accept the new blood that finds
its way here to replace the old blood that is inevitably lost through
natural attrition?

The important thing is that soaring is sustained.


--
Bill Gribble

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