Why is Soaring declining

will remain small, and declining.

Saying that people are "too lazy" to soar is like me saying soaring
people are too lazy to try metalworking. I just made a skid plate for
a 2-33 out of 1/4 inch AR plate, 3 1/2 hours pushing it through the
saw to cut to size. Call me lazy if you will, but I'd rather push the
steel than pay through the nose for what soaring costs, and it's just
as interesting.

BUT Lennie......You went about it the wrong way! I used to take some
stock with the corect width, had the guy where I picked it up, just
cut it with a big shear! Usually made three of them at a time.
Clamped them all together and hoped for a good drill bit in the press.
Those were the times, replacing those skids, while customers were
waiting to fly!

I was lucky to give Lessons in the 2-33 and long intro Flights in the
Janus and always had a big grin on my face jumping in the backseat of
the 2-33 for another lesson in the late afternoon. The differences
made it interesting!
Please be nice to those good ships. I wonder where mine ended up,
owned it
for 25 years, sold it to the Airforce Academy and they probably gave
it away
to some nice Group?

WHERE did it end up? N 5742S .....

Places that give Sightseeing/ Intro rides, The commercial operators,
are our best bet for keeping soaring alive! Those operators need all
the help they can get. Insurance is a problem, seasons, locations etc.

But then, Bill, are you saying .....nothing is forever?

Dieter B
Gliders Of Aspen Inc surrounded by dozens of Gulfsteams and
other jets!

Bob Greenblatt wrote in message ...
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the
most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I
have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points.

Welcome. But I still see people blaming lack of instructors or the
2-33 as core of the problem. I don't really care, until common sense
and a change in the higher mucky-mucks attitude happen, it'll continue
to decline. FInancially block most of the middle class, which is also
declining, and all you're going to see is called "death spiral." For
those that can afford the "hi price glass", it's fine, but there's
nothing for the average guy. Even if there was, it would get so much
badmouth from the eggspurts that it would never sell enough to be
successful. IT's what happens when the competitors take control of
the entire activity. Top of the line, or nothing. Nothing is more
often the better choice. Ignoring the eggspurts is always better.

At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the
most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I
have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points.

I agree with you, Bob. I had almost replied in kind, but thought I might have
been under the influence (I wasnt').

What many people don't get is the concept of fun in this sport. Pretty sad.

But I still see people blaming lack of instructor

Not in my club...the instruction committee kicks them out all the time.

Jim Vincent
CFIG
N483SZ
illspam

The high performance market will not make Soaring grow.

I am betting on the new generation of very light gliders, that you can
stick together alone and take home and are self launchers! Those have
to be improved for taxiing abillity. Then there should be very similar
2 place trainers, same make, that Operators can train in and present
a package. Looks like those setups are coming.

If those selflaunchers can go down to $ 30 000 I think we have
something.
People have to be trained to be able to fly off of most any airport,
with good radio procedures and skills to fit into that traffic.

This will enable folks to fly a little after work, on weekends without
a crew,
do flights in a hiking fashion. (Wandersegelflug) in German. Also
they may have some time left over for Golf or Tennis........maybe bas
fishing?

Think Up

Dieter B







"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:LCmfc.39108$wP1.153715@attbi_s54...
Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market. In fact, I think
the present glider market is about right. There is a market for
state-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing market in used
gliders.

A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass glider with spectacular
performance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such a bargain on the used
market if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for an astronomical sum
when it was new. We need to stop knocking competition, it creates a market
of really neat used gliders. When I started, if you wanted a high
performance glider, you had to build it. By comparison, this market is
nirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't the real problem.

One of the many problems that does need attention is training costs. Rental
and airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than a private power
certificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more hassle to get glider
training because of the short flights and long waits. For anyone interested
in aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for soaring or another
aviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider training costs,
particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look reasonable by
comparison.

Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging for rentals or air tows.
It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's just that those reasons
are not apparent to the newcomer.

I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard look at the training
"experience" from the students point of view to see if there isn't something
that could be done to make it more attractive. The first thing I would
suggest is to look at winch launch for training.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Lennie the Lurker wrote:
Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the
manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in
competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers
think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't
serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane
production is now motorized).

There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the
Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new
glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition
in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the
performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't
better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even
cheaper used gliders.

This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the
gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are
much greater than they are for sailplanes.

and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more
pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia,
and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in
part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is
becoming more acceptable.

The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the
sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders,
thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be
worthwhile.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the
manufacturers "not listening".

Yes. Just as J.I.Case decided to abandon their smaller tractors for
more "profitable" higher buck tractors some twenty years ago. From 96
tractors per day, down to 21 now, and the tractors say "New Holland"
on them. Ten years ago it was already too late for them to try to
reclaim their major market, those farmers that didn't have $100K for a
shiny new humongous machine that they didn't really need.


Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more
pedestrian" might sell.

Then look at how many of the voices ripping the pw actually have flown
or own one. Not a very good ratio of first hand knowledge to personal
opinion. Probably closer to 5% first hand and 95% ignorant badmouth.
2-33, 1-26, PW-5, Russia, makes no difference, it's below 40:1 and
anything that can be said negatively will be. Nobody asks if it's
serving the purpose for which it was designed.


Threads on a newsgroup are about as effective as dragging a foot to
stop a semi headed for a cliff on a 10% grade.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 04:03:04 UTC, (Leon
McAtee) wrote:

: While I think there are other causes for the decline of recreational
: aviation in general, you have identified the real problem - Money. Or
: more precisely the cost of having fun.

I think there is another fundamental problem he learning to glide
(in the UK, anyway) just isn't much fun. Typically it involves
standing round an airfield all day, hoping that an instructor whom
you've never met before will deign to give you a couple of circuits
and filling in the rest of your time acting as ground crew for the
private owners who seem incapable of driving tractors or hooking up
cables.

Worst of all, that's how many of the old farts / committee members /
instructors want it to be, because that's how it was in their day.
Well, maybe it was, but suffering doesn't broaden the soul
particularly and there are many, many other hobbies which don't
involve a year or two of being bored and patronized in the learning.

Gliding clubs in the UK have absolutely no problem in attracting new
people into the sport. They are absolutely lousy at retaining them.

Ian

--

Well, I think also thermal soaring is not for everyone.
Flying in a tight circle for a while is "interesting"
even on my tummy, and I've been doing it a while.

I fly the sightseeing flights at sunset with a high tow for
newbies, lest they get sick. A great thermal day
doesn't seem like the best "first ride" day. If my
wife came with me on a typical "good soaring day" for
me, she'd blow guts, especially with my waggly rusty
rudder skills ;(

The hang glider and parachute and experienced pilot
guys, on the other hand, get right into it with nary
a whimper. The younguns also seem to do better than
the 40+ crowd on the first flight. I keep the
"Qyat Earp" bags handy...

We had a guy getting a power license who'd
toss cookies after every one of his first dozen flights,
and that was a Cezzna 152. About 100 circles in a
sailplane woulda been interesting :PPPP....

Gliding is easy to teach, easy to solo, mildly interesting
(mostly the tow) and not too expensive to get to license. Soaring is
quite different: nuances of weather, a lot of technique
to get it right, lots of decisions in flight, and L/D
does make a difference. And thermal soaring can have
a pretty bumpy tow and tight circles after release.

I dunno if I'd have gotten into the sport if the Hawaii
shoreline wasn't so pretty and if it wasn't for the smooth
ridge soaring...I still envy you guys with nice long
consistent ridgelines...personally I hate circling and
having to work for lift...I'd rather just float around all
day in peace at less than 15 degrees of bank...

Yep, it is a sport and a hobby. And just like freezing
my butt off in a catamaran vs. champagne and strawberries
on a 70 foot "sailboat", soaring vs. gliding/power has some
challenges that can involve a tad bit of suffering...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Lennie the Lurker wrote:
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the
most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I
have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points.

Welcome. But I still see people blaming lack of instructors or the
2-33 as core of the problem. I don't really care, until common sense
and a change in the higher mucky-mucks attitude happen, it'll continue
to decline. FInancially block most of the middle class, which is also
declining, and all you're going to see is called "death spiral." For
those that can afford the "hi price glass", it's fine, but there's
nothing for the average guy. Even if there was, it would get so much
badmouth from the eggspurts that it would never sell enough to be
successful. IT's what happens when the competitors take control of
the entire activity. Top of the line, or nothing. Nothing is more
often the better choice. Ignoring the eggspurts is always better.

Man, I had a helluva great flight in that $10,000 Blanik
L-13 two seater recently. And personally I prefer flying with two
instead of one anyway. The L-13 seems like the closest thing the
sport has to a glider for the "average guy." I taped the things
tail up lovingly, and gave it an average wash, and had a blast with
a fellow licensed glider pilot.

We flew slow, we flew fast, we practiced retracting gear, we went
to 9000 ft, we had a great view, the cockpit was big, and it
was $37 for the two of us. I thought "why don't I get other people
to come with me?" and then the reality set in. It really would
have been too much for their tummies. I mean it. Really that was
it.

I've taken maybe 100 people on first flights, probably half are
close friends and relatives, and none of them would have enjoyed
the 3 hour flight, because of nothing other than the bumps and
circling.

Does this explain declining numbers? No. But I'd like to
point out that getting folks into soaring is more than
just getting them a ride in a glider...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

OK, so I was flying hang gliders at the time and sometimes bought Soaring
at
the newsstand. (You can't do that anymore.)

Just like I used to buy Hang Gliding at newstands. We were told by the SSA
executive 10 years ago that newstand placement of Soaring was no longer
cost-effective for magazine supplier businesses (for such a small press run
and niche market). Is this still the case? Have the new SSA Directors, PR
Committees, and Staff looked into that?

All it takes to get a Soaring Mag in the barbers chair
is to take one you are finished with and drop it in
there. I drop them at the doctors office and in the
university library.

Yes, and many libraries will add subscriptions on request. SSA even has a
special subscriber only price for this.