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#81
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Leading Turns With Rudder
"toad" wrote in message ... On Aug 2, 7:35 am, "user" wrote: Then you're talking about a mental game, which is fine. Focus on the rudder since it requires a larger movement at low speed. .... snip ... The question in my mind is, does the original post's premise of a regimen of "...the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is rudder (as its own separate input)." produce a good pilot? At anything more than a few knots above MCA, this formula will lead to a slewing nose, in equal proportion as I would expect to see in an underruddered turn entry near MCA. Yes, it is a mental game. The instructor's job is to train the student to fly correctly. The talking is just a means to the end. I don't care if the instructor tells the student to first yell "olly olly oxen free" before he turns. If the student performs a good coordinated turn entry, then the instructor has done their job. Todd 3S Well, yes, but... The goal should be to train pilots for a lifetime of safe, high performance flying. Merely training them to the standards needed for solo or the practical test is shortchanging them. Beware the knock on ramifications of "primacy". If taught to "lead with the rudder" when in fact the goal is simultaneous application of rudder and aileron, that will come back to bite the trainee when feet reaction times improve with increasing experience. "Lead with rudder" is, in fact, only a shortcut that helps the instructor move the student along faster. In the long run, it puts the student at risk for skidding turns and stall/spin accidents. The fact that certain big wing gliders and antiques actually benefit from this technique doesn't excuse teaching it to primary students. The student should first learn to do it 'right' and then learn the exceptions. Teach them correct theory and help them use their feet in coordination with their hands. It will be hard for them to use their feet in coordination with their hands at first, but they will learn to do it eventually. If you want your student to improve coordination of turn entries, try "use less aileron" rather than "lead with rudder". Or: "Dont use more aileron than the rudder can cope with". Bill Daniels |
#82
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Leading Turns With Rudder
This battlefield is littered with straw men.
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#83
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Maybe so, maybe so... There is a mysterious figure, left power CFI flying for soaring who
may or may not corporally exist: http://www.pilotpsy.com/index.html Sarah user wrote: He says... from the lotus position, index finger on thumb, palms turned upward, and fingers spread. Be the glider. Hmmmmmmmmmm.... Hmmmmmmmmm.... Maybe someday I'll reach that plane (pun intended). In the meantime, the best I can do is manipulate the controls to keep the string straight and the speed within a knot or two of where I think it should be. Beep, beep, beep... Hmmm... Now where did I leave my copy of The Zen of Gliding? :-) "noel.wade" wrote in message ... I probably shouldn't leap back into this mess, but let me just point out one more thing: People tend to think about stick movements and pedal movements when they talk about "coordinated" flying. But the truth of the matter is that the airplane doesn't CARE what goes on in the cockpit. It cares about how the air flows over the craft and the control surfaces. "Flying coordinated" means making WHATEVER control inputs are required, in WHATEVER sequence necessary, to keep the airflow as orderly and efficient as possible. IMHO the best pilots are the ones who "detach" themselves and shift their Point Of View to that of the aircraft itself. They aren't thinking about the flight in terms of how they perceive it as an occupant from their particular seating position or their control stick. Thinking in terms of the aircraft and the air around it is infinitely better than trying to act as a manipulator of levers and pulleys inside a tube. --Noel |
#84
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 15:26 01 August 2008, toad wrote:
On Jul 31, 6:59 am, "user" wrote: Slewing the nose before banking... every time you turn? "Leading with the rudder" does NOT equal "Slewing the nose before banking" ! You can lead with the rudder and still get a coordinated turn entry. You might only lead by a fraction of a second, but you can push on the rudder before the stick. If that is what works best in the glider that you are flying. Todd Smith 3S I agree that it's very glider-related: in some machines I've flown (especially those with larger and/or multiple spans) there is not enough rudder to coordinate with full aileron deflection at normal thermal entry speeds, so a way to counter that is to apply rudder for a longer duration (before and after aileron input) or more rudder / less aileron (slower entry). As this is a _transient_ situation and results in improved coordination and control, I can't get too worried about it; if a training glider requires similar inputs to fly nicely then why not mention this? Better than a student losing confidence because their turns feel a bit imprecise and they don't know why? (I assume they've been taught to turn the šproperš way to begin with...) From what I've seen, I'd say it's much more important to eliminate the tendency, once turning, to _continuously_ hold rudder deflection into the turn along with out-turn aileron (lack of comfort with banking?) We all know where that leads, yet I've seen it demonstrated by some fairly experienced pilots who were unaware of their habit. |
#85
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 12:55 04 August 2008, Ed Downham wrote:
I agree that it's very glider-related: in some machines I've flown (especially those with larger and/or multiple spans) there is not enough rudder to coordinate with full aileron deflection at normal thermal entry speeds, so a way to counter that is to apply rudder for a longer duration (before and after aileron input) or more rudder / less aileron (slower entry). As this is a _transient_ situation and results in improved coordination and control, I can't get too worried about it; if a training glider requires similar inputs to fly nicely then why not mention this? Better than a student losing confidence because their turns feel a bit imprecise and they don't know why? (I assume they've been taught to turn the šproperš way to begin with...) From what I've seen, I'd say it's much more important to eliminate the tendency, once turning, to _continuously_ hold rudder deflection into the turn along with out-turn aileron (lack of comfort with banking?) We all know where that leads, yet I've seen it demonstrated by some fairly experienced pilots who were unaware of their habit. Even with a training glider which requires "lead with rudder" for a full deflection thermal entry turn it is not necessary for a normal turn entry with less aileron deflection (The Grob 103 is a perfect example) The Grob enters a turn in a co-ordinated manner provided the correct amount of aileron is used simultaneously with rudder to balance. The original point was teaching lead with rudder to ab initio students and this is clearly not necessary and bad practice. When teaching turns to ab initio students no-one teached full aileron deflection do they? It is a technique which can be introduced to more experienced pilots when they need to use full aileron deflection for a clean thermal entry, and is perfectly valid as long as the pilot is ware of the pitfalls of applying large amounts of rudder. |
#86
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Better straw men than the real thing...
Bill has a good point. Hard to say how many of our little expediencies lead to inexplicable accidents farther down the road! "Nyal Williams" wrote in message ... This battlefield is littered with straw men. |
#87
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Leading Turns With Rudder
In article , "user" writes:
Nontheless, the rudder balances aileron drag. To be more precise, the rudder primarily balances the fore/aft tilting of the lift vectors on the left and right wings, which is a result of _roll rate_. The aileron drag difference has a much smaller contribution. The PDF diagram in this link illustrates the effect: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=31 Coordination is simply defined as balancing the yaw moment from the ailerons with a SIMULTANEOUS and opposing yaw moment from the rudder. The amount of rudder needed to compensate for aileron drag is inversely proportional to speed. Correct. But the required rudder deflection is actually inversely proportional to CL, and hence to the _square_ of the speed. |
#88
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Leading Turns With Rudder
At 23:44 07 August 2008, Mark Drela wrote:
In article , "user" writes: Nontheless, the rudder balances aileron drag. To be more precise, the rudder primarily balances the fore/aft tilting of the lift vectors on the left and right wings, which is a result of _roll rate_. The aileron drag difference has a much smaller contribution. The PDF diagram in this link illustrates the effect: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=31 No sure that the above is the complete answer as it covers profile drag but completely ignores induced (lift dependent) drag. Consider a glider wing in level flight and assume we have a drag factor of 2 (Newtons, foot pounds,bananas, doesn't matter) The airlerons to roll and the lift on the down going aileron wing is doubled over the area influenced by the aileron, the induced drag increases by 4. If the ailerons are non differential the lift over the same area on the opposite wing is reduced by half to 1 giving a total force of 5 trying to induce yaw. On a glider with long wings the leverage of these forces will produce a significant adverse yaw while the aileron is applied. I would agree that when the glider starts to roll the upgoing wing suffers a reduced angle of attack, over it's whole area, reducing the lift and vice versa for the other wing, these forces tending to mitigate the adverse yaw caused by lift inbalance between the two wings. |
#89
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Leading Turns With Rudder
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#90
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Leading Turns With Rudder
Hi Guys, I am a bit new to this forum, but see that you have quite a
prolonged discussion going on ! The only comment I would like to make is that whilst undergoing some type conversion at the Long-Myndd, my Instructor said I was not using much rudder.... Whilst I was flying straight and level... My attempts at wing leveling where being quite succesful in the turbulent air, and we were holding a good fixed heading, but he was correct; That even without any roll, the deflected ailerons would still be producing differential drag.... and the adverse yaw. Many thanks to that Instructor, I now always use the rudder whenever I shift the stick, even in straight and level flight. Pilot Pete |
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