flaps

Jay Honeck wrote:
Spend an hour or two landing on the numbers with the stall horn squalling.

It's funny how much easier this was to do when I was renting
airplanes. Heck, I'd routinely drag it in at minimum forward air
speed and plunk it on the numbers, just to see how short I could land.

When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6-
cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before
"practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props,
and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with
the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all.

I believe my 182 had a similarly sized engine to your Piper and I always
landed as close to full-stall as I could get. If you do it all the
time, then you get to where it works pretty much all the time. And
landing this way SAVES on tires and brakes and, done properly, has no
affect on struts, firewalls, prop or engine.


This post, IMHO, above all else, is a real tribute to the utility of
manual, Johnson-bar flap actuators. Hard to miss when THOSE don't
work.

It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering
where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've
flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177.

Matt

It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering
where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've
flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177.

Matt,

Yes, you are correct, when the flaps DO deploy it is noticeable. The flaps
on the 177 are large and effective. It's when they DON'T deploy that it can
get past you unnoticed in a busy cockpit. How many times have you flow a
Cessna that the flaps failed to set? Probably never. So most of the
readers here have no idea how they would or wouldn't notice the failure.

If I was a CFI I think I might occasionally pull the flap breaker and see
how many students catch the situation and at what point.

AAMOF I will throw that out there to the CFI's...let's do an experiment.
Pull the breaker when the student isn't looking and have them fly the
pattern for a landing. Post the results on how many did and didn't
understand the problem. If they catch it, at what point did they realize
that no flaps were out? I'd be interested in the results.

Post the results here under this post "flaps".

Kobra

Kobra wrote:
It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering
where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've
flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177.

Matt,

Yes, you are correct, when the flaps DO deploy it is noticeable. The flaps
on the 177 are large and effective. It's when they DON'T deploy that it can
get past you unnoticed in a busy cockpit. How many times have you flow a
Cessna that the flaps failed to set? Probably never. So most of the
readers here have no idea how they would or wouldn't notice the failure.

Just once, but I noticed it instantly, and I was already pretty busy
flying an instrument approach into OSH of all places after having lost
my alternator. When I noticed the alternator light come on about 20
miles out, I turned off everything but one navcomm and the transponder.
However, once on short final, the old habit kicked in and I put the
flaps down even though I was on battery power alone at that point. The
flaps made it about 5 degrees before the battery gave up the ghost
completely. I said "crap" and then proceeded to land the airplane. No
big deal and it was instantly obvious that the flaps hadn't deployed
even with my mind a little preoccupied.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:




It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering
where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've
flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177.

I owned one. You can't miss them if you happen to be in the aircraft
during a landing.

Jay Honeck wrote:


When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6-
cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before
"practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props,
and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with
the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all.

That's really disappointing to hear. I didn't realize this attitude
even existed but this does explain some things I see. I have more fun
plunking my airplane down in small spots than just about anything else.

Newps,

That's really disappointing to hear. I didn't realize this attitude
even existed but this does explain some things I see. I have more fun
plunking my airplane down in small spots than just about anything else.


Me too. And I own it, too. It's not a smart attitude not to practice with
your own plane. But you're right, it does explain a lot of the "driving
on" of larger singles one sees.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:38:14 -0700, Jay Honeck
wrote:

Spend an hour or two landing on the numbers with the stall horn squalling.

It's funny how much easier this was to do when I was renting
airplanes. Heck, I'd routinely drag it in at minimum forward air
speed and plunk it on the numbers, just to see how short I could land.

This should be a part of every ones practice.

When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6-
cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before
"practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props,

Nope, not even with a Beech retract. I'd probably do two (or more) of
these about every time I'd go out and practice. After about the
second one I'd find the "airport bums" (group I hang out with) hanging
on the fence, grading the landings.

and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with
the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all.

I bought 'em to use and I used them to lean both the limits of the
airplane and myself.


This post, IMHO, above all else, is a real tribute to the utility of
manual, Johnson-bar flap actuators. Hard to miss when THOSE don't
work.

When I add flaps I look at them. It's become a habit.
OTOH the Johnson bar flaps in the Cherokee 180 could make for a very
impressive, short roll out after a STEEP descent.


:-)

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

I bought 'em to use and I used them to learn both the limits of the
airplane and myself.

Yep.

The Skylane has a reputation as a great short field airplane: I'm enjoying
making mine live up to that reputation.

Life is for living; airplanes are for flying.


--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
IMHO, full flaps are called for on a normal landing...it is only when
gusts or crosswinds raise their ugly heads that lesse deflections should
be used. The goal is minimum speed at touchdown, and you are depriving
yourself of a huge energy sink.

Spend an hour or two landing on the numbers with the stall horn squalling.

Bob Gardner



....but not in front of American, or Delta, or any of the others that need
100+ knots across the fence.

There are way too many folks taking an absolute position on this topic.
Flaps or no flaps depends on a whole lot of variables with wind being only
one of them.

Kobra however was intending on making a partial flap landing that was going
in the ditch, but he didn't catch the clues until later. That's the point we
should take away from this story.


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

Kobra wrote:

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used
a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without
the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

He called you a pimp? :-) :-)


Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

A failed switch. A burned out flap motor. Etc.


I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

No flap landings are really non-events. You got way too worked up over
it. I'm also surprised that you kept ignoring all of the signs that the
flaps were inop. This is a good lesson though and one that didn't cause
you any harm and one that you will long remember. Whenever things feel
different, find out why ... don't just keep plodding along.

Matt