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#11
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
"john smith" wrote in message ... In article , "Peter R." wrote: I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold" instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors." Oh man, that is really going to screw up departures at AirVenture! They get special rules written specifically for the event. Planes two wide and three deep in position and hold is certainly unique, |
#12
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
Reminds me of a flight I was on last year. I tuned to Camarillo tower
to listen in even though I was a couple thousand feet above his airspace and I heard this exchange: PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... twenty six. TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions. PLANE: I'd like to take off. TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six. PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six. TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six. PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what you mean. TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on the runway? PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here. TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.) Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six. PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123...........and I'm departing to the right. I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing, presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? And what if he's already a pilot? Scary stuff. Also, I was once given a P&H instruction at Santa Monica with a Hawker jet on short final. I was in a Piper Cherokee with no rear window, and I declined. Controller had me switch over to ground for a moment to tell me about how they like to sequence 'em tight on busy days, but it's my butt on the line, not his. It probably would have been fine 99 times out of 100 with the spacing, but what about that 1 time? P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions. Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera, Action the moment the tower tells you to. IMHO. Ben Hallert PP-ASEL http://hallert.net/cozy/ |
#13
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
Gary Drescher wrote:
.. I've never felt worried about someone landing on me while I'm holding in position at a controlled airport, but perhaps the risk is more significant than I'm aware. Have many such collisions actually occurred? You betcha. As a matter of fact, there IS NO POSITION AND HOLD AT NIGHT as a result of one such crash. We were position and holding at Dulles one day (daylight) when the tower had to send a Gulfstream around because they realized we were still waiting for clearance. We offered to get off (it wasn't that close) but they declined. |
#14
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
Gary Drescher wrote:
"Peter R." wrote in message ... I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold" instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors." Hm, I bet a more effective anti-incursion strategy would be to keep using position-and-hold but require an explicit clearance to taxi across any runway. You've always needed an explicit clearance to taxi across runways. How does that solve position-and-hold issues? |
#15
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
"Ben Hallert" wrote:
I gotta wonder how he didn't know what 'Position and hold' meant. If he didn't have his instructor onboard, he's soloing, and if he's soloing, presumably he's learned all this stuff... right? In theory, yes. In practice, if a student is doing his primary training at an uncontrolled field, it's likely he's not got much experience with towers. While "position and hold" is probably something he's been taught, there's a big difference between being taught something and knowing it. Can you honestly say you've never been confused by something ATC said to you? It sounds like the poor pilot did the right thing -- ATC said something he didn't understand, so he asked for clarification and didn't move until he got it sorted out. |
#16
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone touches down calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern and more calling in their arrival. Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off. As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get in and out of there. Dave "Peter R." wrote in message ... I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold" instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors." At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th. From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this spring. The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this move. While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures. -- Peter |
#17
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
I've always had a problem with pilots at non-towered airports self
announcing "position and hold on runway so-and-so". Just as soon get rid of that one too.NOt possible to see landing traffic once you are "position and hold". |
#18
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
No such thing as P&H at an uncontrolled airport. The practical effect might
be the same, but the phraseology is wrong. Bob Gardner "Dave D" wrote in message news What about at uncontrolled fields? At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone touches down calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern and more calling in their arrival. Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off. As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get in and out of there. Dave "Peter R." wrote in message ... I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold" instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors." At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th. From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this spring. The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this move. While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures. -- Peter |
#19
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
"Dave Stadt" wrote in
et: They get special rules written specifically for the event. Planes two wide and three deep in position and hold is certainly unique, I've seen two deep at HPN, as recently as yesterday morning as a matter of fact. |
#20
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FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US
If I'm already on the runway with a P&H clearance, I already did the LCA.
BT P&H should be replaced by a directive to pilots to plan for an immediate departure upon receiving "clear for takeoff" instructions. Stopping on the numbers then doing a checklist is just out. By the time you're holding short, you should be ready for Lights, Camera, Action the moment the tower tells you to. IMHO. Ben Hallert PP-ASEL http://hallert.net/cozy/ |
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