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#21
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Any Spins Lately??
"Bob Moore" wrote in message 46.128... Vaughn Simon wrote I respectfully disagree. AFAIK, Spin training is only "required" for the CFI rating. Spin training for all other ratings is optional, so the exception of 91.307 (d) does not apply. (Yes! I know that there are other opinions around. If your FSDO goes along with some other reading of that reg, then more power to you.) You certainly posses no ability to read and comprehend, do you? Actually, I do. Does an AC trump the clear reading of the CFRs? The FAA has had several chances to clear this up if it were to so choose, yet it has passed them up. Why? Vaughn |
#22
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Any Spins Lately??
Larry Dighera wrote:
What have you found to be the MTBF for your gyros? As I said, the same gyros have been in the panel and working fine for 14 yrs. and I tend to average about 4 or 5 spins per month. When one of them finally fails, I'll get back to you. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) -- Message posted via AviationKB.com http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200709/1 |
#23
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Any Spins Lately??
On Sep 4, 8:36 am, Airbus wrote:
You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the opposite is true. In article . com, says... If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane you are flying? Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl. Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or request some training or a flight review. Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save some lives in the process? Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard World Infamous pilot/Instructor- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Airbus On what do you base that statement "In reality, the opposite is true." ? I'm basing my statement on what I've seen in 40 years as a flight instructor. Cheers Ol S&B |
#24
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Any Spins Lately??
On Sep 5, 5:52 am, Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:36 am, Airbus wrote: You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the opposite is true. In article . com, says... If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane you are flying? Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl. Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or request some training or a flight review. Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save some lives in the process? Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard World Infamous pilot/Instructor- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Airbus On what do you base that statement "In reality, the opposite is true." ? I'm basing my statement on what I've seen in 40 years as a flight instructor. Cheers Ol S&B The only reasion there aren't more stall/spin accidents than many years ago, if there ARE fewer, is because the airplanes built now are so forgiving. They are spin-resistant. Just try getting a 172 into a decent spin. So now we have the equivalent of tricycles instead of bicycles, just like we have anti-skid brakes and other idiot-proofing stuff on our cars. The overall result is a pilot or driver who thinks he is proficient because the machine never gets away on him, while the reality is that some engineer was given the task of designing a machine capable of babysitting him. I believe many stall/spin accidents come about after a guy gets his ticket in a newer design, then goes and buys an older airplane like a Champ or Cessna 140 and promptly gets himself into trouble. He didn't get any spin training while he was getting the taildragger checkout. He wasn't shown what happens in a sloppy, skidding base-to-final turn. Dan |
#25
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Any Spins Lately??
Airbus wrote:
You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the opposite is true. In article . com, says... If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane you are flying? Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl. Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or request some training or a flight review. Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save some lives in the process? Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard World Infamous pilot/Instructor I would respectfully disagree with this line of reasoning. There are various factors involved with the stall/spin issue, and the present accident stats whatever they are and whatever they show are only the tip of this iceberg. If there are negatives showing in the accident statistics, they are not caused by the base root factor that spin training will make you a better and a safer pilot. I've been involved directly with aerobatic training for over 50 years and I will tell you without hesitation that spin training and/or aerobatic training will absolutely make you a better everyday or eben weekend pilot. If anything, negative statistics would indicate that there are serious problems with the training end of the equation, which there are to be sure. If the training end is flawed, the end statistics will show that flaw and the final product (the pilot) will be reflect those flaws, most likely showing up as a less than desired result in the accident stats. There have been enough training accidents caused by improperly trained instructors attempting to give spin instruction to students to have become a serious safety issue causing much concern about the use of spin training as a deterrent. This would have to be changed to reflect a more positive result. What's needed is a better understanding and acceptance of the basic premise that spin training is beneficial followed by much better expertise levels in the instructor community. Unfortunately I don't see this happening due to FAA reluctance based on the training safety issue and the combined reluctance of the GA aircraft manufacturer and the local FBO to have general aviation projected to a potential customer base as an environment involving spinning the airplane. I believe spin training will remain as it is for the foreseeable future. I also believe that spin training is so beneficial to a new pilot that it should be sought out and accomplished regardless of present restrictions and mindset. -- Dudley Henriques |
#26
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Any Spins Lately??
On Sep 5, 10:30 pm, Airbus wrote:
An interesting twist that has come to light from recent AOPA discussions and rebuttals is that most spin training undertaken by private, commercial and ATP candidates is done with the ambition of recognizing and avoiding spins - in other words, virtually no one today really subscribes any longer to the belief that spin recovery is useful or practicable in the low-altitude "turn-to-final" scenario, and those students who do practice spins are mostly interested in avoidance more than recovery. The turn-to-final stall spin is probably unrecoverable, but the spin-trained pilot might recognize what's beginning to happen in time to avert the accident. If nothing else, with spin training he'll have experienced what Transport Canada calls "intensity," or an eye- opener, a bit of a scare, that makes a believer out of him. He won't be so sloppy in that turn to final anymore because he'll be aware of the cost. When I instructed on Citabrias we did all the scenarios, and you'd better believe the student had much more respect for the airplane after that. He knew a lot more than before. And that was the point. I watched a guy stall and spin out of a steep turn at low level and low speed about ten years ago at Arlington. He had been doing this for some time, and it finally bit him. He might not have known the danger, and once things began to go wrong he may have done all the wrong things: pull back to try to raise the nose, and use opposite aileron to raise that wing. Both are exactly wrong but are reflexive actions for the non-spin experienced pilot. His first mistake was to be doing his maneuvers at such low altitude, but he'd still have spun if he did it up high and might not have recovered there either. In any case, the crash was non-survivable. Spins are plenty safe if done properly. They're not hard on the airplane. We do them in Canada and accidents are rare. The more dangerous times, IMHO, are the takeoff and landing phases. Not much room for error. Dan |
#27
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Any Spins Lately??
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#29
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Any Spins Lately??
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:24:01 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote: Actually, I do. Does an AC trump the clear reading of the CFRs? The FAA has had several chances to clear this up if it were to so choose, yet it has passed them up. Why? I think that Catch 22 applies here. As my instructor noted with respect to solo propping an airplane: "Dan, there are a whole lot of reasons why you wouldn't want this to become an issue." As with the 1950s-era French rules of the road (the car on the right has the right of way; and you must be in control of your vehicle at all times), I get the impression that with the FAA you are okay as long as nothing goes wrong. But if something does go wrong, then you are in trouble. Having read the discussion here, I would insist on a parachute if I were to do any more spin training, or if I were a CFI about to introduce a student to spins. Blue skies! -- Dan Ford Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942 new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com |
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