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#61
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:01 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote: Hmmm, could be. Lots of turboprops have fadecs now. The latest Pratts, I beleive. I was having this ocnverstation with an FO who had come off a Dash-8 and he told me the latest version of it ( Q400 or something?) had them. I said "yeah, but they don't have this problem with power, though, surely" and he told me that they probably did since power was definitely required to run the fadec. They tell us very little about the innnards of these fuel units, but I cant see them icencing an airliner without enough system seperation to ensure that one failure doesn't kill two engines at once. At least in the Meridian they have a manual override lever which is directly connected to the FCU via cable linkage. I know it's not FADEC, but maybe they have a similar emergency mode in the -8. I can't see the point of having a Twin star when it can effectively be a single engine airplane if the lights go out. i know someone who bought one on behalf of his club and he agreed with me that it was a feature of the design, but insisted that it will NEVER be a problem as long as you follow the POH. If anyone here besides Anthony, met this guy RL, No more confirmation would be necessary that this was a baaaaad idea. The specific problem the crash flight had (draining the battery and killing the FADECs) was corrected via AD requiring backup battery to the FADEC in case you screw up the ships battery. Each engine has a FADEC, each engine has it's own alternator and backup FADEC battery. For that specific problem they've now put in redundancy. |
#62
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Thomas Borchert wrote in
: Bertie, That doesn't address anything. You're almost as funny as MX with your taking things out of context at will. He's better at it, though. Yeah right. nice try. bertie |
#63
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Thomas Borchert wrote in
: Bertie, Go **** yourself. You need to learn to behave yourself at least to minimal standards before any further discussion with you makes sense. Behave myself? Lessee, you made a national slur and you're saying that I need to behave myself? Go **** yourself and your sister and her donkey. And as to dscussion, you gave up on that looooong ago. Clinging to a lost cause is not discussion. Bertie |
#64
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Peter Clark wrote in
: On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:26:01 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Hmmm, could be. Lots of turboprops have fadecs now. The latest Pratts, I beleive. I was having this ocnverstation with an FO who had come off a Dash-8 and he told me the latest version of it ( Q400 or something?) had them. I said "yeah, but they don't have this problem with power, though, surely" and he told me that they probably did since power was definitely required to run the fadec. They tell us very little about the innnards of these fuel units, but I cant see them icencing an airliner without enough system seperation to ensure that one failure doesn't kill two engines at once. At least in the Meridian they have a manual override lever which is directly connected to the FCU via cable linkage. I know it's not FADEC, but maybe they have a similar emergency mode in the -8. I can't see the point of having a Twin star when it can effectively be a single engine airplane if the lights go out. i know someone who bought one on behalf of his club and he agreed with me that it was a feature of the design, but insisted that it will NEVER be a problem as long as you follow the POH. If anyone here besides Anthony, met this guy RL, No more confirmation would be necessary that this was a baaaaad idea. The specific problem the crash flight had (draining the battery and killing the FADECs) was corrected via AD requiring backup battery to the FADEC in case you screw up the ships battery. Each engine has a FADEC, each engine has it's own alternator and backup FADEC battery. For that specific problem they've now put in redundancy. But the fadec still relies on electrics to make the engine run. I knew about the AD, BTW. Bertie |
#65
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
WingFlaps wrote:
I see your point and I think it's a good one. As I said before, I smell the rat of marketing... Cheers You keep want to blame Marketing. Sure they may have said we need to have an easy to use FADEC system but it was the engineers that decided not to have the limp home mode. |
#66
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Gig,
Sure they may have said we need to have an easy to use FADEC system but it was the engineers that decided not to have the limp home mode. In a way, they do (if not in the way it used to be installed in the DA42): the emergency battery. I guess what I'm trying to say is: This engine is different than the old Lycs and TCMs. Doesn't mean it's worse. Just different. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#67
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Thomas Borchert wrote:
Gig, Sure they may have said we need to have an easy to use FADEC system but it was the engineers that decided not to have the limp home mode. In a way, they do (if not in the way it used to be installed in the DA42): the emergency battery. I guess what I'm trying to say is: This engine is different than the old Lycs and TCMs. Doesn't mean it's worse. Just different. What I'm trying to say is that the way the FADEC is enabled in the Thielerts and the way it is in some newer Lycs is different. In the Thielerts there doesn't seem to be a limp home mode. Wingflaper or what ever his name is seems to want to take any negative comment about the Thielert engine as an attack on the very idea of aviation diesels and that their very nature of being new that mean old USAians don't like them. |
#68
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message ... WingFlaps wrote: I see your point and I think it's a good one. As I said before, I smell the rat of marketing... Cheers You keep want to blame Marketing. Sure they may have said we need to have an easy to use FADEC system but it was the engineers that decided not to have the limp home mode. So, how would you arrange a "limp home" mode that avoided a low volts problem, with electronic fuel injectors? If you go to mechanical injectors, you lose the advantages inherent in the electronic ones. The only way, I can think of, is to add sources of power. Al G |
#69
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Thomas Borchert wrote in
: Gig, Sure they may have said we need to have an easy to use FADEC system but it was the engineers that decided not to have the limp home mode. In a way, they do (if not in the way it used to be installed in the DA42): the emergency battery. I guess what I'm trying to say is: This engine is different than the old Lycs and TCMs. Doesn't mean it's worse. Just different. Nope It's worse. Bertie |
#70
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Thielert (Diesel Engines)
Al,
So, how would you arrange a "limp home" mode that avoided a low volts problem, with electronic fuel injectors? If you go to mechanical injectors, you lose the advantages inherent in the electronic ones. Ah, thank you! Of course, as Bertie puts it, one could theoretically build alternative injectors in, I guess. One could also plate the engine with gold. But, as you say, an engine with electronic fuel injectors is an engine with ELECTRONIC fuel injectors. The basis for the engine is a mass-production car engine. That's what makes (may make) the engine viable in the market. And I still fail to see how "mechanical" would somehow inherently be better or more relaible than "electric". In fact, a common rail diesel has a much simpler mechanical design than one with mechanical injectors - it is much less prone to failure in that respect. Interestingly, the SMA diesel is of the old style, with mechanical injectors. It also has a mechanical emergency throttle. It also has gained zero traction in the market, in large part due to its high price. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
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