I give up, after many, many years!

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

snip

Again, you are talking to a pilot, who just experienced IMC and a
vacuum failure.

You're a very lucky pilot, then, if you're here posting to this newsgroup.

Laughably, totally, ignorantly, wrong.

He is posting because he is trained and used everything at his disposal,
which includes motion sensations and sounds, to get back on the ground
in an airplane that doesn't have a pause key.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

That sensation tells you that you are coordinated, which is the point.

No, it does not. Other things can produce the same sensation. You have no
way of knowing which movement produced the sensation unless you cross-check
against instruments or the world outside the window.

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

The choices are NOT

a) Stare out the window
b) Stare at the panel
c) Fly blindfolded.

I take back everything I ever said about you being intelligent with
psychological issues.

You are an idiot with psychological issues.


The sensation in real airplanes allows you to fly more precisely and
safer.

The sensation in real airplanes gives some pilots a false sense of security.

Yet another blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on
sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you feel?

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

The choices are NOT

a) Stare out the window
b) Stare at the panel
c) Fly blindfolded.

It only takes a couple of hours in a real airplane to learn to interpret
what they are and what they mean.

Sometimes it takes an accident to learn that you can't trust those sensations.

Yet another blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

That's not what the "literature" says.

That's exactly what it says. Trust your instruments, ignore your sensations.

Yet another blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.


--
Jim Pennino

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Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

On the contrary, it's important. Can you really be sure that your turn is
perfectly coordinated and that you are holding altitude without ever looking
at the instruments?

Yes.

How?

Training in a real airplane.

Looking out the window. It is a VFR turn, remember from the stuff you cut?

Looking out the window is no longer flying by the seat of your pants, which
disproves your assertion.

Yet another blazingly stupid response that shows you know nothing about
real flight, not even the terminology.

The term "flying by the seat of your pants" does not mean flying blindfolded.

How do you tell
the difference between an uncoordinated turn and being pushed by the wind?

Once again a blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about
flying.

How do you tell the difference between an uncoordinated turn and being pushed
by the wind?

Yet another blazingly stupid response that shows you know nothing about
real flight.

You are safest spending as much time as possible looking out the window.

Why? I thought you could fly by the seat of your pants?

Yet another blazingly stupid response that shows you know nothing about
real flight, not even the terminology.

The term "flying by the seat of your pants" does not mean flying blindfolded.


--
Jim Pennino

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On 5/17/2008 3:30 PM Mxsmanic ignored two million years of human
evolution to write:

MSFS aircraft are

nonexistent.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

You haven't a clue what a FMC is, what it does, or how it is used.

I know quite a bit about how a FMC works.

Then why did you make such an idiotic post about airlines and FMC's?


--
Jim Pennino

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On Sat, 17 May 2008 07:30:55 -0700 (PDT), A Lieberman
wrote:

ILS minimums, it's only 20 seconds. The more you use your senses WITH
instruments in IMC, the better chance your outcome will be.

I think that was very well said. G

I fly by feel. I orient myself visually, either looking out the window or
looking
at the instruments. I navigate visually. But I FLY by feel.

How many seconds can you fly by feel before you get into trouble.

Initially we were talking about instrument flight. Somehow, several posts
upstream this got conflated into instrument flight after a vacuum failure --
a completely different kettle of fish.

IMHO (and this from a 1300-hour VFR pilot and aircraft owner who stopped
just short of taking the IFR flight test in '02) MX's assertions regarding
ignoring physical sensations mesh perfectly with everything I've been taught
about instrument flight. You MUST ignore what your inner ear is telling
you and pay strict and sole attention to your instruments, or you've got 153
seconds (or whatever the time was) before you auger in.

This point is supported by every written text on instrument flight I've
read, and by every CFII I've flown with. I can't argue that certain
sensations help to confirm what's happening during certain phases of
instrument flight -- but to state that you don't place absolute trust in
your instruments in IMC does the students on this group a disservice.

Now, of course, if you want to talk about flying by the seat of your pants
after your vacuum pump goes T.U. in IMC, well, that's another thread.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on
sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you
feel?

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. MX is arguing that
you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants --
which is 100% correct.

You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by
the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window!

God almighty, keep it up -- it's "Who's on first" all over again, and some
pretty damned good Saturday night entertainment!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On May 17, 6:37 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
A blazingly stupid comment that shows you know nothing about real
flight.

I'll ask again: Can you fly safely with your eyes closed, relying only on
sensations, and selectively ignoring or accepting the sensations you
feel?

What part of you must spend as much time as possible looking out the
window in VFR are you failing to understand?

You guys are hilariously arguing right past each other. MX is arguing that
you can't fly in IMC ("with your eyes closed") by the seat of your pants --
which is 100% correct.
You, on the other hand, jrespond by arguing that of COURSE you can fly by
the seat of your pants, if only you look out the window!
God almighty, keep it up -- it's "Who's on first" all over again, and some
pretty damned good Saturday night entertainment!
:-)

After doing a weird manuever, it's hard to tell if you're
in a banking turn or a spiral dive, that's how I learned.
Maybe a good pilot could use VFR as a ref, but I was
clued in by my IAS needle going into yellow.

I was a fairly good gymnast, so my orientational
skills are likely a bit better than average.
Ken

On May 17, 8:31*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
* You MUST ignore what your inner ear is telling
you and pay strict and sole attention to your instruments, or you've got 153
seconds (or whatever the time was) before you auger in.

Jay,

I think you missed my point.

Like I said originally to you in my original post, you ignore certain
sensations (inner ear like you say) but you DO NOT ignore the seat of
the pants sensation. Two different beasts but still sensations.

Mx blanket statement is flat out wrong. I only brought out the vacuum
failure as an extreme example, but even with a full working compliment
of instruments, you still need to listen to your sensations.

Read my ILS rational, where you feel the applied power to capture the
glide slope. If you don't feel it in the seat of your pants, you got
a bigger issue. If you are above the glide slope, and you reduce
power, the lack of pressure in your butt should happen, but if the
opposite happens, you have a problem.

Good example, though not likely, but very possible is having the trim
set in the nose down position rather then nose up. Apply power and
instead of maintaining level altitude, you just accelerated downhill
and you wouldn't get that firm seat of the pants feeling. The
building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Remember, that the above sensations helps CONFIRM the instruments, NOT
the other way around.

but to state that you don't place absolute trust in
your instruments in IMC does the students on this group a disservice.

You can't. If you do that, you miss the whole point. It's a
combination that makes it all work. If you put 100 percent faith in
instruments and ignore what I am describing above, then you are
failing to recognize instrumentation or airplane setting errors, and
that will lead to a not so good ending.

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

Now, of course, if you want to talk about flying by the seat of your pants
after your vacuum pump goes T.U. in IMC, well, that's another thread.

Nope it is not, I flew my partial panel Friday the very same way if I
had full instrumentation. I just had less gauges to monitor :-)

Again, go up with an IA rated pilot, see what the real deal is all
about. That hood just doesn't do it any justice, nor will any MSFS
desktop simulator do it.

If you have not seen my video, go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCvDb3mCAf8
and then watch it at 1:39. Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn. You feel that climb in the seat of your pants which is
verified with your attitude indicator (when it works!).

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end. This has nothing to do with inner ear balance which is what you
need to ignore. Had I not felt that climb in my rear end, then I got
something big time wrong with the plane that I need to reconcile,
whether it be trim, or power or something.else like picking up icing
affecting my power performance.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

Allen