Club Class

This whole Sports Class vs Club Class argument is absurd.

There are FUNDAMENTAL differences between the intent of the two
classes:

Sports is meant to be a "beginners" class. Thus the shorter, simpler
(?) tasking, and letting any glider that shows up compete. OK in
theory, except when you end up with a Blanik racing a Nimbus 4DM...but
if both pilots are beginners to racing, then it kinda works.

Club class is meant to be a serious racing class for pilots who don't
have the latest FAI gliders, but still wand serious competition with
challenging tasks.

There is a need for both; the Arizona Soaring Association addresses
this with 3 level of tasks when necessary, so that the task difficulty
better matches the glider performance and pilot skill of the
competitors.

I personally will not compete in a Sports Class contest unless it is
held in my back yard. I will travel to a Club/Modern contest
(planning on attending Moriarty again this June - CH are you in?). I
will also go to 15M regionals or even the Nationals if possible, even
if my LS6 is not quite as competitive as the latest V2s and 29s,
because I enjoy a challenging race.

My suggestion? Combine Club/Modern with Std/15 regionals, with
slightly shorter tasks for the Club/Modern. Bigger field, bigger
contests, more fun. Ditto Sports/Club; same venue and contest
management, different tasks/scoresheets.

Kirk
66

I agree, there is a need for both and the sports class should be for "new"
pilots to racing or/and very low performance handicapped gliders. While
club class should be flown in Club class gliders Which is by far the
largest segment of gliders out there just very few of them fly in contests
because of getting beat badly in FAI classes with no handicap or getting
beat in soports by a 1.54 handicapped 1-26 flying a 2.5 hour TAT and only
going 70 miles while club class has to go twice as far. Trying to combine
such diverse handicaps is just to dependant on weather.

And to answer your question about Moriarty I may not considering the SSA's
last minute decision to change the Insurance requirements without
notification for SSA sanctioned contests-----but that should be another
thread entirely!

CH Ventus B

At 13:12 20 December 2011, kirk.stant wrote:
This whole Sports Class vs Club Class argument is absurd.

There are FUNDAMENTAL differences between the intent of the two
classes:

Sports is meant to be a "beginners" class. Thus the shorter, simpler
(?) tasking, and letting any glider that shows up compete. OK in
theory, except when you end up with a Blanik racing a Nimbus 4DM...but
if both pilots are beginners to racing, then it kinda works.

Club class is meant to be a serious racing class for pilots who don't
have the latest FAI gliders, but still wand serious competition with
challenging tasks.

There is a need for both; the Arizona Soaring Association addresses
this with 3 level of tasks when necessary, so that the task difficulty
better matches the glider performance and pilot skill of the
competitors.

I personally will not compete in a Sports Class contest unless it is
held in my back yard. I will travel to a Club/Modern contest
(planning on attending Moriarty again this June - CH are you in?). I
will also go to 15M regionals or even the Nationals if possible, even
if my LS6 is not quite as competitive as the latest V2s and 29s,
because I enjoy a challenging race.

My suggestion? Combine Club/Modern with Std/15 regionals, with
slightly shorter tasks for the Club/Modern. Bigger field, bigger
contests, more fun. Ditto Sports/Club; same venue and contest
management, different tasks/scoresheets.

Kirk
66

On Dec 20, 7:00*am, Cliff Hilty
wrote:
I agree, there is a need for both and the sports class should be for "new"
pilots to racing or/and very low performance handicapped gliders. While
club class should be flown in Club class gliders Which is by far the
largest segment of gliders out there just very few of them fly in contests
because of getting beat badly in FAI classes with no handicap or getting
beat in soports by a 1.54 handicapped 1-26 flying a 2.5 hour TAT and only
going 70 miles while club class has to go twice as far. Trying to combine
such diverse handicaps is just to dependant on weather.

And to answer your question about Moriarty I may not considering the SSA's
last minute decision to change the Insurance requirements without
notification for SSA sanctioned contests-----but that should be another
thread entirely!

CH Ventus B

At 13:12 20 December 2011, kirk.stant wrote:



This whole Sports Class vs Club Class argument is absurd.

There are FUNDAMENTAL differences between the intent of the two
classes:

Sports is meant to be a "beginners" class. *Thus the shorter, simpler
(?) tasking, and letting any glider that shows up compete. *OK in
theory, except when you end up with a Blanik racing a Nimbus 4DM...but
if both pilots are beginners to racing, then it kinda works.

Club class is meant to be a serious racing class for pilots who don't
have the latest FAI gliders, but still wand serious competition with
challenging tasks.

There is a need for both; the Arizona Soaring Association addresses
this with 3 level of tasks when necessary, so that the task difficulty
better matches the glider performance and pilot skill of the
competitors.

I personally will not compete in a Sports Class contest unless it is
held in my back yard. *I will travel to a Club/Modern contest
(planning on attending Moriarty again this June - CH are you in?). *I
will also go to 15M regionals or even the Nationals if possible, even
if my LS6 is not quite as competitive as the latest V2s and 29s,
because I enjoy a challenging race.

My suggestion? Combine Club/Modern with Std/15 regionals, with
slightly shorter tasks for the Club/Modern. *Bigger field, bigger
contests, more fun. *Ditto Sports/Club; same venue and contest
management, different tasks/scoresheets.

Kirk
66- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dick Johnson often said that Sports Class is the "entry & exit class",
so don't forget about us old duffers that still like to race, but no
longer get excited about flying in the rat-pack classes. Where can I
find a list of Club Class ships?
JJ

On Dec 20, 8:00*am, Cliff Hilty
wrote:
I agree, there is a need for both and the sports class should be for "new"
pilots to racing or/and very low performance handicapped gliders. While
club class should be flown in Club class gliders Which is by far the
largest segment of gliders out there just very few of them fly in contests
because of getting beat badly in FAI classes with no handicap or getting
beat in soports by a 1.54 handicapped 1-26 flying a 2.5 hour TAT and only
going 70 miles while club class has to go twice as far. Trying to combine
such diverse handicaps is just to dependant on weather.

And to answer your question about Moriarty I may not considering the SSA's
last minute decision to change the Insurance requirements without
notification for SSA sanctioned contests-----but that should be another
thread entirely!

The SSA did not change the requirements, they remain as before. It
was determined that at least one underwriter's policies, as written,
did not meet the coverage requirements for SSA sanctioned contests,
thus a clarifying document was presented. The SSA was planning to
reach out to one said underwriter to consider a modification in the
language and limits of their coverage. I don't know if this has been
done yet, but it was felt it was important to communicate this to
pilots as soon as possible. A straw poll of a few pilots determined
they were unaware of their policy limitations.

Frank Whiteley

Dick Johnson often said that Sports Class is the "entry & exit class",
so don't forget about us old duffers that still like to race, but no
longer get excited about flying in the rat-pack classes. Where can I
find a list of Club Class ships?
JJ

What defnes a "club" class ship is one of those great mysteries in
life. The blessed list of gliders for US team selection is here

http://www.ussoaringteam.org/ustc%20...ssList2008.pdf

But... that was based on the 2008 IGC definition of club class, and
the IGC adds and deletes gliders every year. Presumably the team will
update that list at some point, or perhaps rethink the rule limiting
team selection to pilots who fly gliders on a specific but ever-
changing list.

US "club" class contests are for now free to define club anyway they
want to, so long as they can persuade the contest committee chair that
what they're doing is sensible. The Moriarty contest website

http://moriarty2011.susanmcallister.com/

defines club as:
Club Class (.935-1.05 handicap plus Ventus (15m), ASW 20 (15m), and
LS-6 (15m)

Your Genesis is pretty safe in club class!

John Cochrane

On Dec 20, 5:12*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
This whole Sports Class vs Club Class argument is absurd.

There are FUNDAMENTAL differences between the intent of the two
classes:

Sports is meant to be a "beginners" class. *Thus the shorter, simpler
(?) tasking, and letting any glider that shows up compete. *OK in
theory, except when you end up with a Blanik racing a Nimbus 4DM...but
if both pilots are beginners to racing, then it kinda works.

Club class is meant to be a serious racing class for pilots who don't
have the latest FAI gliders, but still wand serious competition with
challenging tasks.

There is a need for both; the Arizona Soaring Association addresses
this with 3 level of tasks when necessary, so that the task difficulty
better matches the glider performance and pilot skill of the
competitors.

I personally will not compete in a Sports Class contest unless it is
held in my back yard. *I will travel to a Club/Modern contest
(planning on attending Moriarty again this June - CH are you in?). *I
will also go to 15M regionals or even the Nationals if possible, even
if my LS6 is not quite as competitive as the latest V2s and 29s,
because I enjoy a challenging race.

My suggestion? Combine Club/Modern with Std/15 regionals, with
slightly shorter tasks for the Club/Modern. *Bigger field, bigger
contests, more fun. *Ditto Sports/Club; same venue and contest
management, different tasks/scoresheets.

Kirk
66

A quick phone call to AVEMCO revealed "they have been getting quite a
few calls this morning concernong the 100,000.00 limit. I was told the
1,000,000.00 limit would increase my liability only coverage from
$252.00 to $450.00.
What is Costello charging for liability only?
JJ

my understanding is that insurance requirements haven't changed. The
SSA has notified us though that some insurance policies are available
that don't meet the requirements so buyer beware.

Sorry for flying my low performance glider at the regionals but its
what I have and is what I will fly. After beating Frank Paynter on
Day 3 at Region 10 by 14 points I offered to trade him the Cherokee
for his Ventus for the remainder of the contest. He declined. If
there was that great of an advantage to flying a high handicap glider,
more people would show up with 1-26's instead of ASW-27's. However if
you still believe that having a high handicap is a great advantage I
can probably figure out a way to get you plans for the Cherokee II.

Fear of getting beat (by anyone) seems like a lousy reason to not go
to a glider contest. If that was the case only about 4 people would
show up to most contests.

It was my impression that the tasking at the regional i went to was
satisfactory to everyone involved. The circles were large thanks to
gliders ranging from my Cherokee to Dave Coggins' Nimbus. If a pilot
felt we weren't flying far enough each day it was his own fault, IMO.
The weather was very consistent throughout the entire region which
definitely helped. My experience is a very small slice of the contest
world though, so I'm rather pollyanna-ish about the subject.

I am looking forward to the day I can get a club class glider though.
In the meantime I will have a lot of fun flying sports class in my
Cherokee.

Frank, It sure smack's of a monopoly ploy but on either account to change
the requirement without a diligent time frame (ie a policy period) since I
have already paid for mine in good faith, is unfair and will preclude me
from joining any contests until I decide if this is worth it to me.

Second to that is that there are more than two dogs in this fight and there
opinions differ. I have talked to both Costello and Avemco and made a
choice based on there approach to this question. We have had a similar
issue with land owners requirements in Prescott and its easier to just
pass on the libility and cost to the end user, us the glider pilots, when
whats at stake, in my opinion, is personal liability not the SSA's or the
land owners.

Give the lawyers a deep pocket and they will stick there hands into it!

CH Ventus B

At 16:14 20 December 2011, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Dec 20, 8:00=A0am, Cliff Hilty
wrote:
I agree, there is a need for both and the sports class should be for
"new=
"
pilots to racing or/and very low performance handicapped gliders. While
club class should be flown in Club class gliders Which is by far the
largest segment of gliders out there just very few of them fly in
contest=
s
because of getting beat badly in FAI classes with no handicap or
getting
beat in soports by a 1.54 handicapped 1-26 flying a 2.5 hour TAT and
only
going 70 miles while club class has to go twice as far. Trying to
combine
such diverse handicaps is just to dependant on weather.

And to answer your question about Moriarty I may not considering the
SSA'=
s
last minute decision to change the Insurance requirements without
notification for SSA sanctioned contests-----but that should be another
thread entirely!

The SSA did not change the requirements, they remain as before. It
was determined that at least one underwriter's policies, as written,
did not meet the coverage requirements for SSA sanctioned contests,
thus a clarifying document was presented. The SSA was planning to
reach out to one said underwriter to consider a modification in the
language and limits of their coverage. I don't know if this has been
done yet, but it was felt it was important to communicate this to
pilots as soon as possible. A straw poll of a few pilots determined
they were unaware of their policy limitations.

Frank Whiteley

On Dec 20, 8:23*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Dec 20, 5:12*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:





This whole Sports Class vs Club Class argument is absurd.

There are FUNDAMENTAL differences between the intent of the two
classes:

Sports is meant to be a "beginners" class. *Thus the shorter, simpler
(?) tasking, and letting any glider that shows up compete. *OK in
theory, except when you end up with a Blanik racing a Nimbus 4DM...but
if both pilots are beginners to racing, then it kinda works.

Club class is meant to be a serious racing class for pilots who don't
have the latest FAI gliders, but still wand serious competition with
challenging tasks.

There is a need for both; the Arizona Soaring Association addresses
this with 3 level of tasks when necessary, so that the task difficulty
better matches the glider performance and pilot skill of the
competitors.

I personally will not compete in a Sports Class contest unless it is
held in my back yard. *I will travel to a Club/Modern contest
(planning on attending Moriarty again this June - CH are you in?). *I
will also go to 15M regionals or even the Nationals if possible, even
if my LS6 is not quite as competitive as the latest V2s and 29s,
because I enjoy a challenging race.

My suggestion? Combine Club/Modern with Std/15 regionals, with
slightly shorter tasks for the Club/Modern. *Bigger field, bigger
contests, more fun. *Ditto Sports/Club; same venue and contest
management, different tasks/scoresheets.

Kirk
66

A quick phone call to AVEMCO revealed "they have been getting quite a
few calls this morning concernong the 100,000.00 limit. I was told the
1,000,000.00 limit would increase my liability only coverage from
$252.00 to $450.00.
What is Costello charging for liability only?
JJ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't see any motor-gliders on the Club Class list. If so, you guys
just got my attention.
JJ

On Dec 20, 10:25*am, Tony wrote:

It was my impression that the tasking at the regional i went to was
satisfactory to everyone involved. *The circles were large thanks to
gliders ranging from my Cherokee to Dave Coggins' Nimbus. *If a pilot
felt we weren't flying far enough each day it was his own fault, IMO.
The weather was very consistent throughout the entire region which
definitely helped. My experience is a very small slice of the contest
world though, so I'm rather pollyanna-ish about the subject.

Tony, it is fundamentally impossible to create a fair, challenging
race (not organized timed XC) task when the range of gliders is
Cherokee to Nimbus. Sure, you can throw out a short AAT with huge
turn areas and send them out - but that isn't racing!

I've got nothing agains the lower performance gliders - but I've CD'd
enough ASA contests to appreciate how hard it is to make challenging
tasks without stooping to the "fits-all" AAT.

The point is - get as many gliders as possible together at the same
time, sort them into similar performance groups, then task
accordingly. What is so hard about that? It's already done with FAI
classes! Then we can see the return of the speed task, and put AATs
back where they belong - as weather option tasks!

I am looking forward to the day I can get a club class glider though.
In the meantime I will have a lot of fun flying sports class in my
Cherokee.

Looking forward to racing with you!

Cheers,

Kirk
66