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#52
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(JGB) wrote in message . com...
(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com... (JGB) wrote in message . com... (Kevin Brooks) wrote in message Israel kicked Arab ass in '67 using French jets and British tanks. It conquered all the "occupied" territories without any US help. It's been losing ground literally ever since. None of which has anything to do with the false claim that we only provided Israel with aid after deciding to sell advanced weapons to neighboring Arab nations. Stick with the subject at hand and control your rants. The first sale of modern weapons to Israel was with the Hawk sale by Kennedy in 1962, snip further off-topic ranting Again, show where the US started providing aid to israel merely in order to make weapons sales to the Arab nations...or admit that statement was instead wrong in the first place. ISrael kicked Arab ass long before the major "bankrolling" began. In fact, the US had an embargo on both sides until the early '60s. I'd be happy if that embargo on both sides were reemplaced, provided that Europe, Russian and China joined in with it. Israel can produce its own equipment, and only takes the US stuff because it is provided for so cheap, nearly free. But Merkava II tank is superior to the Abrams M1A2, and even the USAF uses Rafael's Python-4 (soon Python-5) AMRAAMs. No, we don't use the Python AAM (and Python is not an "AMRAAM"). Sorry, I meant AAM. I had heard that the US does use the Python AAM. Was I misinformed? Badly. We use the AIM-9 Sidewinder family. you are zero for two right there. And again, nothing you have said disputes the fact that US aid to Israel predates the sale of advanced US arms to the Arab nations. If that's the case, let the US and its allies stop selling arms to the Arabs, That *is* the case. We were providing major aid to Israel LONG before we engaged in selling advanced weapons to any neighboring Arab nations, and even then we provided generally less capable systems to them than we were providing to Israel. And your "if-then" construct does not make sense--why should we have to tie our policies regarding Israel to those we use in dealing with other nations? That should be OUR choice, not that of Israel, or AIPAC, etc. snip related and illogical diatribe more or less. That is the real reason why there is virtually no congressional opposition to US aid to Israel, No, that would be because of AIPAC campaign contributions. Hardly. Very few rich Jews left in America these days. Most have assimilated out in the last 20 years. Nope. But then again, this "rich Jew" bit is your construct, not mine. I find it generally advisable to stay away from such pedantic characterizations. Your characterization that the entire Congress is held captive by a tiny number of rich JEws operating through AIPAC is equally ludicrous. That was NOT my claim--go back and READ the posts. Nowhere have I used the rather contemptable phrase "rich Jews"--that is YOUR choice of wording. I am one of those folks who feels it is possible to oppose some Israeli policies, and many aspects of US aid to Israel, without it being based upon such inflammatory and bordering-on-racist views as engendered by that "rich Jew" phrase. My claim IS that AIPAC has more to do with the lack of Congressional debate on this matter than does the alleged impact on US defense industry. snip If anything, it would be the Christian Right that would stop arms sales to the Arabs if the US imposed a one-sided aid and arms embargo on Israel. They would indeed be a problem in that regard--and this is the very first uttering you have made which is close to being on-target and correct. Congratulations--maybe you can now reword your earlier rants and bring them back into the realm of the discussion at hand. If there wasn't a single JEw left in America, and no AIPAC, there wouldn't be much of a difference. Millions of Bible-believing Christians will not allow us to sell the Arabs all the arms they can pay for with the oil under their feet, while cutting off all aid to ISrael to help pay for its own defense against 100 to 1 numerical superiority. Even if it wasn't Israel; even it was Taiwan instead, the fairness of the American give anybody in a similar posture a fighting chance. Whatever one may say about the American people, they are innately fair by nature. LOL! We danged near came close to doing exactly that to Taiwan a couple of times. The fact is that AIPAC *is* a powerful PAC; sorry, but that is the case. snip Logic fault. If, as this thread posited, Israel *refused* aid, then it would be unlikely that the Arab nations would also be cut off. Why should it refuse practically free equipment while the US sells $5B to its enemies annually? That would be nuts. This started as a case of an individual whining about Israel losing potential sales due to its dependence upon US systems. If they want to cut the apron strings, fine--all they have to do is say "no" to the aid. But taking the aid and then whining about its repercussions is a bit of the old "having your cake and eating it too". Alas you are not aware of what is going on inside ISrael. US companies are buying up Israeli defense companies and spiriting their engineers away to California! From the Israeli perspective, it is big America limiting their defense industry and cherry picking off the cream of their brainpower! Raytheon, Boeing, TRW, et. al, are gutting ISrael companies that have recently been privatized, luring their best people away, or forcing those who are trying to remain independent to relocate as US companies in California (and elsewhere) thereby moving their corporate headquarters, with all the jobs that corporate headquarters usually generate, "offshore" TO THE US!!! The US is NOT a sucker country! When it gives with one hand, it eventually takes back with the other! I'm not being critical of American generosity, but when it comes to business, Americans are not the patsies as some would want to believe. The US did not go into business 227 years ago to make a loss! Happy Fourth of July. Oh, please. Other nations have erected protections against foreign majority ownership of their critical defense industries, and israel could as well. But Israel does not want to turn off the tap of US aid dollars, plain and simple. Fine, but don't then come back and whine about alleged repercussions. As to those alleged cases of Israeli brain-drain, that is the peril of maintaining open immigration policies that allow individuals to migrate in search of better opportunities for themselves. Is that a crime? Let the US embargo BOTH sides, and force Europe, Russian and China to do the same. Let the Arab, who outnumber Israel 60 to 1, produce their own arms the same way Israel does. Hard to do that, as Israel is a major foreign supplier of military goods to the PRC. Israel turned its back on Taiwan in order to further ingratiate itself with the PRC, and Israelis still periodically whine over the US putting its foot down over their proposed sale of the Phalcon radar system to the PLAAF for their AWACS program. The loudest and most shrill scream you'd hear in response to your proposal would be from the Israelis, who look upon the PRC as a serious potential cash cow. So you agree with the above? Brooks snip |
#53
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#54
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wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks) wrote: "Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard? Pollard never caused any harm to the US. Selling every weapon you can to the PRC? And that would be bad how ? China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status in the USA. It's tiring to argue with him because he posts fact he knows are false. For example, he knows well that Israel don't sell its most advanced technology to China. Nonetheless it doesn't stop him from posting this lie again and again. On every second post of him there are false or distorted arguments. He will tell you that China has python 3 missiles, but even Chile already have Python 4's. He will tell you about the phalcon Israel wanted to sell to China eventhough he knows that Israel Assured the Americans that the Chinese phalcon didn't contained the latest generation of the Israeli technologies. Etc. |
#55
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wrote in message . ..
On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks) wrote: "Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard? Pollard never caused any harm to the US. How do you know that? He was convicted of espionage on behalf of a nation that has engaged in providing its most advnaced weapons to a nation that we have to maintain an eye on as a potential threat--doesn't sound all that innocuous to me. Selling every weapon you can to the PRC? And that would be bad how ? Because they reside at the top of the list of potential state threats to the US. China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status in the USA. And how many advanced *weapons* do we export to them, or do our firms even try to? There is a difference between civil trade and military exports--the same rules do not apply. Brooks |
#56
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On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:02:46 +0200, wrote:
On 3 Jul 2003 18:09:06 -0700, (Kevin Brooks) wrote: "Close" to each other? Ever heard of Pollard? Pollard never caused any harm to the US. BS, Pollard is a traitor who sold his Countries secrets. He caused both military and moral damage to the US. Selling every weapon you can to the PRC? And that would be bad how ? China enjoys a Most Favored Nation status in the USA. MFN no longer exists. China is a nation that we trade with. That does not make them a friendly, or even neutral, country. Al Minyard |
#57
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"Quant" wrote in message om... "Tarver Engineering" wrote in message ... "Quant" wrote in message om... wrote in message . .. snip American defense contractors would not be too happy if that were to happen. Israeli defense contractors will be (very happy). Friendship between US and Israel is a two way street. Yes, America will not hate Israel, like "old Europe". I'm not sure what you intended to say, but I recognize the fact that America (as contrary to Europe) is dealing with Israel fairly and without prejudice or hate. You seem to got it. I am thankful for that and I think that the existence of the American nation is the best gift Israel and the world could get. We hope to continue to receive the blessing. |
#58
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"Richard Conway" wrote in message om... (JGB) wrote in message . com... Steph wrote in message ... Tarver Engineering nous disait : Israeli pilots were making jokes about nuking Paris not so many weeks ago. I think AI has made an enemy. If they have nukes, it's much thanks to France ... If the US and France have nukes, it's thanks to the Jews. The atomic bomb is a Jewish invention. The atomic bomb was conceptualized by a Jewish individual - the Manhatten project was not. The Jews in Chicago made the bomb real. |
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