Puchaz Spinning thread that might be of interest in light of the recent accident.

"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
...

Snip---

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

Snip---

Mike

It does make one wonder. I seem to recall something on r.a.s. to the effect
that an inspection of a Puch in the USA turned up a metal plate that was
adrift somewhere in the rudder control curcuit. This loose plate, it was
said, could prevent the rudder from moving back from the fully deflected
position. I seem to recall that it was suspected that some of the spin-in
accidents might be due to this.

Perhaps someone with a better memory will comment.

Bill Daniels

If you read the other thread about spinning you may understand what
experienced pilots do.
Recovery from incipient spins might be just a sligh easing of the stick with
slight opposite rudder pressure.
No need to dive inside the thermal.

However, the only way to recognize this condition is to train for it, while
also training for fully developed spins, resulting from level attitudes with
pro-turn rudder and low speed (a definite killer in low altitudes).

The reference to the more benign spin characteristic of some training
airplanes is true.
In some of them you don't need to move the stick full forward to recover
from a spin.
Basically the spin breaks off very easily with just a sligh easing of the
control column forward and opposite rudder.
Full forward stick will only cause an excessively nose-low attitude
resulting in a high-speed dive following the spin.
But this is only true in certain aircraft, and if the pilot trains in them
he will recognize this.

The Puchacz has a similar characteristic, actually.
If you press opposite rudder while keeping the stick aft, nothing much
happens for a full turn (I never went beyond that).
But with this opposit rudder applied, as soon as back pressure on the stick
is removed, the glider sort of "snaps" out of the spin.
There is no need to move the stick all the way forward or you will then be
in an aerobatic, 90 degree nose-low dive.
Unnecessary.

As I pointed out earlier, Dick Johnson tested the Puchacz and gave it a
clean bill of health.
www.ssa.org, click on Magazines, Dick Johnson, scroll down to find the
Puchacz evaluations (2 articles).


"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:56:36 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


Asked about the delay in recovery, the pilot said that the standard
recovery
technique used in the powered aircraft he had been flying was just to
reverse the rudder and to keep the stick aft of center. I pointed out
that
every glider I knew of required forward stick for a sure recovery. (We
did
several more spins until we both were comfortable with his spin recovery
technique.)

I think the take-home lesson is that airplanes can spin more benignly
than
gliders. Relying on spin training in airplanes is just not always
appropriate and can leave the pilot with misconceptions about glider spin
recovery.

I think the gentleman's spin recovery training was suspect. Since when
was standard spin recovery other than:

Full opposite rudder
Pause
Move the stick forward
When the spin stops centralise rudder and recover gently from the
dive?

Even if the aircraft recovers with mere application of opposite rudder
surely the full standard recovery must be taught?

The fatality in the Blanik here a few years ago was that the spin
became a spiral so even the Blanik won't necessarily stay in a spin.

I think that, if you fly gliders that will spin, it is wise to experience
the spin recovery at least once and preferably more often than that.

As I said I agree. Note however you cannot do this in all types that
you fly. Some like the Standard Libelle and Nimbus 3DM are placarded
against deliberate spins.

That said, there is nothing wrong with basic training that emphasizes
recognition of an incipient spin over spin recovery. Recognition that a
spin is imminent, and knowledge of the technique to prevent it, will save
more lives than expert spin recovery.

So, is spin training dangerous? Yes, but much less dangerous than not
doing
spin training. The path from novice to expert is sometimes fraught with
peril but remaining a novice is more dangerous still. The Puch, Blanik,
and
Lark spin more like the glass gliders most of us fly. As such, they are
excellent trainers. Just choose an instructor that is very experienced
with
them.

Bill Daniels

When two testpilot/spin instructors, at least one of whom had
extensive spin experience in gliders can kill themselves in a Puch by
spinning in I wonder how much experience the instructor has to have?

The experienced cross country pilots I know never spin accidently. At
most they may get a wing drop in a thermal. The question is what do
they know or do that prevents them from ever spinning accidently?
If we find this out we might make some progress.

Mike

"JC" jrc at visi.dot com wrote in message
...

Actually Vaugn, you are wrong. Parachutes are not required for spin
training. This issue is addressed by the FAA in the Frequently Asked
Questions section of their web site. Below is a copy of the question
and answer. (The URL for the entire FAQ document is:
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/640otherfaq/pt61-17.pdf )

I stand corrected.

Vaughn

Well, we certainly have two schools of thought on this spinning issue. I think
the "Spinners", hearken back 60 years or more and probably have their roots in
military training. They say things like, "Train Hard, Fight Easy" Who are we
fighting? My God, we're killing people as we try to make them safer pilots. I
was amazed to read that the Brits seek out sailplanes with "GOOD" spin
characteristics. Isn't that like buying a sailboat that is easily upset, just
so we can all get dumped in the water and then set it right side up again?

The truth is, most sailplanes from the Eastern block, spin real GOOD. Put them
in the hands of a low time pilot and we are setting up a disaster. Aren't we
just asking for trouble when we solo a student in a Puch? We had one spin-in,
here in California with two high time sailplane pilots on board. We had a
single place Lark spin-in from 10,000 feet with a low time pilot on board. RIP
X 3

Here's a thought. Buy sailplanes that don't spin easily (G-103 & ASK-21) and
enjoy this sport by teaching only spin entry and emmediate recovery.
JJ Sinclair

Repeating someone who wrote this earlier in the week :
"Sure, we should stop training landings as well because that's where the
majority of the accidents happen."

The ignorance in this particular discussion has reached a level where it's
beyond help.


"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Well, we certainly have two schools of thought on this spinning issue. I
think
the "Spinners", hearken back 60 years or more and probably have their
roots in
military training. They say things like, "Train Hard, Fight Easy" Who are
we
fighting? My God, we're killing people as we try to make them safer
pilots. I
was amazed to read that the Brits seek out sailplanes with "GOOD" spin
characteristics. Isn't that like buying a sailboat that is easily upset,
just
so we can all get dumped in the water and then set it right side up again?

The truth is, most sailplanes from the Eastern block, spin real GOOD. Put
them
in the hands of a low time pilot and we are setting up a disaster. Aren't
we
just asking for trouble when we solo a student in a Puch? We had one
spin-in,
here in California with two high time sailplane pilots on board. We had a
single place Lark spin-in from 10,000 feet with a low time pilot on board.
RIP
X 3

Here's a thought. Buy sailplanes that don't spin easily (G-103 & ASK-21)
and
enjoy this sport by teaching only spin entry and emmediate recovery.
JJ Sinclair

(...........) The ignorance in this particular discussion has reached a
level where it's
beyond help.

Well, sorry for sounding so harsh.
I think everybody deserves access to the right information so :
1) Forget all the "oppinions" that have been flying around on this subject.
2) Run to the SSA, or BGA or other such web sites, and order some of the
excellent books written by people like Tom Knauff, Derek Piggot, Bob Wander.
Recognized as world authorities in glider flight training.

If you're a student you will benefit tremendously from reading this material
before your next flight lesson.
The right knowledge can save your life and ensure a long and happy flying
carrer.

If you're an instructor, chances are good that you already have some of
these books.
And in that case, you have refrained from saying anything here at
rec.aviation.soaring (as I should have done).
Most of what I read here these past few days clearly came from people who
don't even know thes names.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:40:28 UTC, Todd Pattist
wrote:

: "Ian Johnston" wrote:

: But fundamentally, sorry, I don't believe
: that Puchacz's - or any other certified gliders - kill competent
: instructors. It's a hell of a way to find out, though, that you are
: not - or the guy behind you is not - a competent instructor.
:
: So your answer to my question seems to be that 1) anything
: that's certified is safe enough by definition,

No, I mean it has been carefully checked and found to be safe at
anything a competent instructor should be asking it to do.

: and 2) you or
: those you deem "competent" are better than those who've
: died?

If I've stayed within my ability limits and survived, and they have
strayed beyond their's and died then, yes. Bluntly.

: We agree that there can be bad instructors, but wouldn't the
: accidents be spread among other glider types? Regardless of
: the cause, it's worthwhile for those who do spin training to
: look at their procedures, their aircraft and their
: instructors in light of these accidents and decide if
: improvements can be made.

Agreed completely.

: Minimum heights for spin entries,
: parachutes,

Agreed partially. Might lead to the curse of over rule-dependence and
under brain-dependence which seems to be creeping through the gliding
movement.

: limitations on which instructors give the
: instruction,

No, no, no, a thousand times no! Well, two "no"s anyway:

1) My main worry about spin training at the moment is that it's very
often presented in such a way (special aircraft or special
preparation) that the pupil assumes it doesn't happen in normal
flights. So even if they know, in theory, how to get out of a spin,
they get into one at a height where that knowledge is fatally useless
- because it just won't happen. Having to get a special instructor to
do spin training will only make this worse.

2) Instructors ought to be able to recover from spins (in controlled
situations). If they can't they bleeding well shouldn't be
instructing.

: perhaps simple extra ground checks of foot
: clearance and full rudder throw prior to a spin training
: flight might help.

I'd have thought that was covered by pre-launch checks anyway. And it
should be, on the basis that every flight is a spin flight, just as
every winch launch will see a cable break ...

Ian
: Be careful out there!
: Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
: (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)


--

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:35:43 UTC, (Chris
OCallaghan) wrote:

: the point of my link was to show that you will not spin from
: coordinated flight.

Tight turn. Slow speed. String in the middle. Pull up sharply as if
another glider has just cut into the thermal. Whoops. Well, it works
in a Bocian, anyway.

Ian
--

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:14:22 UTC, Mike Borgelt
wrote:

: It is called risk management. They fly gliders to go soaring not to do
: aerobatics. Most of them have thousands of hours of flying cross
: country and in competition. They consider it far riskier to do spins
: in gliders of uncertain history with instructors of little experience
: and training who typically seem to them to demonstrate dangerous
: overconfidence.

Ho yes. All good excuses. They should get their checks with
instructors they trust in gliders they trust.

: And they won't spin down on you from above.

If that blithe confidence is misplaced, though, will they be able to
stop spinning?

Though it's not really the reluctance about spinning which gets me -
it's the general nervousness about flyng skills which it reveals.

: Some of the attitudes revealed in this thread make me despair that
: anything will ever happen to improve the soaring safety record.

I agree with you there.

Ian

--

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:29:02 UTC, (JJ Sinclair)
wrote:

: Here's a thought. Buy sailplanes that don't spin easily (G-103 & ASK-21) and
: enjoy this sport by teaching only spin entry and emmediate recovery.

Which is absolutely fine as long as you never fly a single seater
which spins easily.

Ian

PS And why not put an elevator stop on while you're at it, so you
never have to bother with stalls?

--