US Club Class Participation

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:20:48 -0700, gliderman wrote:

I would be interested in flying club class if it consisted of assigned
tasks only.

I assume that in US terminology "assigned task" is what I, in the UK,
understand as a "racing task" - racing round a set of fixed turnpoints.

If so, mandating that only assigned tasks can be set probably closes a
few too many options for the task setter and would result in more
scrubbed days than if judicious use of assigned area tasks on marginal
days is allowed. That's the norm in the UK a racing task is set on a good
day and an AAT if the weather is marginal.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Yes, your assumption is correct and please forgive my slip. You see, I
live in the Southern California desert, where we just don't bother
flying on the occasional "marginal" day! ;-)

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:12:50 -0700, gliderman wrote:

Yes, your assumption is correct and please forgive my slip. You see, I
live in the Southern California desert, where we just don't bother
flying on the occasional "marginal" day! ;-)

I know about your weather from visits to the Central Valley and
Sacramento and because a friend, originally from the East Coast, says she
wants to retire some place like the East Coast or UK (masochist!) because
she's bored with all that unchanging sun. Yes, I do have the Endless
October T-shirt.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

UH,

Short answer:

1) N/A
2) No (N/A if the ASW20 is included in Club)

As a Libelle driver, I would have rather flown against similar gliders
in a Club Class, though it would have made me no more likely to start
in 2002. Now, with a "vintage" ASW20, I'd likely pick Club over Sports
if the 20 is included, but again it would in no way affect my decision
to enter a given contest. However, the chance to occasionally finish
ahead of a 27 or 29 does make Sports a bit more appealing!

For purposes of World Team selection, a Club Class within the Sports
Class Nationals for World Team competitors makes sense to me, but I
see no advantage at the regional level. Even at the 2006 Sports
Nationals, I suspect less than half were there to compete for a spot
on the World Team, while many of us considered it simply a chance to
race at Mifflin and/or qualify for Perry.

When it comes to increasing the pool of competition pilots, I wonder
if anything has done more than the Sports Only regionals (geared
towards first-timers) put on by KS and company in 2002 or 5U in 2004.
How many first-timers at one of those contests (like myself) are still
actively racing, and did those two contests significantly increased
the pool of active competition pilots?

Best Regards,

Jay
R6

On Oct 17, 11:55*am, wrote:
In a couple earlier threads related to a proposed Club class, I asked
pilots *who
don't compete now, but would if we created a Club class, to reply
either on line or to me as RC chair. I indicated I would report the
result.
The response, surprisingly, was no replys.
The element we are looking for is how much increased participation
could come about if we create a seperate class.
So- I'll ask again, maybe in a slightly different way:
1) If you are not currently competing, would the creation of a Club
class bring you in to participation.
2) If you currently compete, or used to compete, would you acquire a
glider to participate in this new class?

If you don't like the wording of my questions, feel free to answer in
your own way.
The key element we are trying to quantify is how development of
another class will increase participation. We already know that some
pilots who own gliders in the Club handicap range would participate.
They affect entry activity as a net zero.

Thanks for your input.

Note: This is an informal poll pole by the RC Chair

H Nixon *UH

UH,

I guess the answer is zero net increase in participation. We all have
our thoughts on Sports/Club Class (mine is that I'd like to be able to
fly whatever glider I bring and I want to measure myself against the
best pilots--that's how I learned about racing when I started 40 years
ago and it's one way I continue to learn). But it sounds like everyone
who currently flies competitively has a "home" and few if any pilots
who aren't in racing would be enticed by a Club Class. IMHO, the last
thing this country needs is another competition class. I just came
back from Region 4N where we had a respectable 35+ pilots...divided
into FOUR classes. Pretty soon soaring will be like those classic car
shows where the classes are defined so that nearly everyonse gets a
trophy (1st place: "Best 1955-1957 Production American 2-Door Sedan,
Stock Body, Modified Engine, Frame-Up Restoration, Street Legal,
Driven Furthest Distance to Show" Class). We can't support the
plethora of classes we have now and we're talking about adding another
one? Since when did the Federal Government get involved in structuring
our competitions?

I know this is a serious subject for some but it does smack of
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Let's focus on keeping the
ship afloat.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

On Oct 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
Hello Hank,

I haven't followed this at all, but here are some thoughts:

If the class was a narrow performance spread such as Libelle though
early Discus - no flaps, no winglets, no extra fairings, no water, all
handicapped, it might appeal to a large group.

The performance is enough alike that the tasks would be flown in
gaggles of very similar performing gliders. Pilots like flying
together.

The current Sports Class favors high wing loading, small fuselage,
modern gliders - no way around it, so it dissuades many from
attending. Still, Sports Class is very popular in certain venues such
as The Seniors, possibly because of the friendly, low-key social
nature.

Sports Class contests could be encouraged to award a special trophy to
the best Club Class glider.

Tom Knauff

As I look around some of the larger clubs that I visit on the east
coast (places like Harris Hill, M-ASA, my home club ACA), it just
doesn't appear that there is a "large group" of people who own second
or first generation glass ships who choose not to participate in
contests because of some perceived lack of fairness in the Sports
Class or even the FAI classes At any given site, I see the
following:

- People who love to race and will do whatever it takes to race in
whatever ship they can get their hands on. Heck, there are even guys
flying vintage ASW-24s against D2s and LS8s in the standard class
(just had to get that one in). These are your hard core racers.
- Competent XC pilots who will go to a race provided it is convenient
(e.g. nearby) or enough of a draw (e.g. Parowan). These folks don't
care where they are on the national seeding list and may not even race
every year. Their biggest concerns tend to be things like is there
free beer, are there showers at the campsites, are some of my friends
going? I just don't hear these guys (who are just as likely to own an
ASW-27 as an LS-3) putting "competitiveness" at the top of their
list.
- Competent XC pilots for whom racing doesn't appeal. These folks
may perceive that racing is elitist, dangerous, too expensive, a
hassle, not fun, etc.

IMO, it's the last group that we should be focusing on if the goal is
to increase the overall participation in racing. As I look at my
club, I see us introducing at least 1 or 2 new people into regional
Sports Class competitions each year. Although this is good, it's
obvoiusly not great in a club where there are probably 30 or more
privately owned glass ships and a couple of perfectly good club 1-34s
which could all find a home in Sports Class.

So, if I had to make a list of priorities, tweaking handicaps or
creating additional classes would be right near the bottom. Instead,
I would focus on:

- More and better supported local racing with a defined path into
regional competitions.
- More "newbie" schools like the ones we see from time to time.
- More regional competitions which expressly target entry-level
racers.
- Continued focus on the contest environment (social events,
camaraderie, etc.)

Finally, I firmly believe that if each hard core racer would make a
committment to budy-up with one newbie at his home field, we would be
able to at least maintain our current level of participation if not
increase it. I think these grass roots efforts would be far more
effective than trying to fine tune classes.

Respectfully,
P3

p.s. Yup, it's actually snowing outside my office window here in
Warren NJ. Guess the end of soaring season is almost upon us.

I just came
back from Region 4N where we had a respectable 35+ pilots...divided
into FOUR classes.... We can't support the
plethora of classes we have now and we're talking about adding another
one?

Here is a suggestion to the club class advocates for a typical small,
dry, regional-level contest. Divide the entire fleet into three
classes, "FAI" lets everyone in, but in practice will be handicaps
above club; tasking set to modern 15/standard glider and high level
pilots. "Club" is any glider on the US team list, as the proposed club
class, with tasking set to typical club gliders std cirrus-LS4 range.
"low performance" is any glider with handicap more than 1, with
tasking set appropriately for the gliders and pilots that show up at
any contest. Everyone flies by sports rules.

This accomplishes what is to my main the main argument for club class,
removing the large luck element that comes from racing gliders with
wildly different handicaps against each other. It also would make
running a regional contest a good deal simpler. It addresses the
class profusion we have now. The majority of regionals already combine
std/15, and only Perry had enough entries to meet the minimum 5 pilots
in both sports and club. It addresses the problem that if we add
"club" then "sports" has a gaping hole in the middle, which may make
it totally unworkable.

I know FAI traditionalists will disapprove, but before going nuts keep
in mind this is a suggestion for an option that people could use to
run one or two small low-key regionals where there is strong interest
in club class. If enough FAI gliders show up, you could easily start
having regular FAI classes with the "FAI Sports" as a catch-all for
the gliders and pilots who don't fit. It's not a suggestion for how
all regionals should be run. It's a suggestion only for regionals. No,
I don't want to write any rules; this is a suggestion for something
club advocates could ask for a waiver to do if they like the idea. So
don't start flaming yet!

John Cochrane BB

My first reaction to John's proposal was "No, no, don't take away my
Standard Class." My second reaction was "Sure, why not?" Way back in
1991, Karl Striedieck, Charlie Spratt, and about 10 of us showed up at
Lockhaven, PA in October for a Region 2/3 contest (it was the
precursor of the increasingly popular Region 4N contest I just
returned from at Fairfield, PA). Various gliders were flown and the
scores were handicapped. I don't know whether we were within the
rules, had a waiver, or what. John Good was there so I suspect it was
OK. The competition was fierce: Karl, John Seymour, world champion
Janusz Centka, Shempp-Hirth's Tilo Holighaus, U.S. Sports Class
Champion Dave Stevenson, et al. We had a blast and I learned a lot.
Anything that helps make competition more accessible without removing
my ability to fly whatever I bring against good pilots is OK with me,
at least at the regional level. My only suggestion would be to allow
pilots to "move up" from the Club Class to FAI Class if they wish. Not
everything more than a few years old is obsolete.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB" ("obsolete" but still going as well as anything out there)
USA

My only suggestion would be to allow
pilots to "move up" from the Club Class to FAI Class if they wish. Not
everything more than a few years old is obsolete.

That's why I think it's best to define "FAI class" as anything. Then
an ASW24, say, can choose where to fly, either with club or the big
boys.

The "FAI" class could just use the 2% handicaps now used for std/15.

John Cochrane BB

The Club Class is popular and works very well in the UK and in Europe. It
is ideal for those who can't afford the latest hot glass sailplanes but
still want to race at National and International level. The only proviso I
would make is that it only really works well if the handicap range is kept
fairly small. You would be unlikely to win in something like a K8, because
all the handicap in the World won't get you across those big gaps, or stop
you running out of day on tasks set for higher performance machines.

Most of the gliders that take part in the UK Club Class are older Standard
Class gliders that would be blown into weeds in an unhandicapped
competition against the latest generation machines. So you get gliders
such as the Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19, ASW24, Grob Astir, LS7 plus a
few two seater glass trainers taking part. The Class is only defined by a
maximum handicap limit and a ban on carrying water ballast.

Derek Copeland


At 22:03 29 October 2008, wrote:
My first reaction to John's proposal was "No, no, don't take away my
Standard Class." My second reaction was "Sure, why not?" Way back in
1991, Karl Striedieck, Charlie Spratt, and about 10 of us showed up at
Lockhaven, PA in October for a Region 2/3 contest (it was the
precursor of the increasingly popular Region 4N contest I just
returned from at Fairfield, PA). Various gliders were flown and the
scores were handicapped. I don't know whether we were within the
rules, had a waiver, or what. John Good was there so I suspect it was
OK. The competition was fierce: Karl, John Seymour, world champion
Janusz Centka, Shempp-Hirth's Tilo Holighaus, U.S. Sports Class
Champion Dave Stevenson, et al. We had a blast and I learned a lot.
Anything that helps make competition more accessible without removing
my ability to fly whatever I bring against good pilots is OK with me,
at least at the regional level. My only suggestion would be to allow
pilots to "move up" from the Club Class to FAI Class if they wish. Not
everything more than a few years old is obsolete.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB" ("obsolete" but still going as well as anything out
there)
USA