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  #31  
Old January 21st 07, 10:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 39
Default Navy Wings?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:40:08 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Wow, the Navy never taught US that in IUT (Instructor Under Training)
school!!!!! :-)

The must have had a "Screamer" subspecialty course, though, because
there were a few of those.

I wonder, though, if the AF method might be a remnant of the old days
when cavalry officers were some of the first aviators. That method is
somewhat common in "old school" equitation instructors. ;-)


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
  #32  
Old January 21st 07, 10:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Ed Rasimus[_1_]
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Posts: 185
Default Navy Wings?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:33:27 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:40:08 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Wow, the Navy never taught US that in IUT (Instructor Under Training)
school!!!!! :-)

The must have had a "Screamer" subspecialty course, though, because
there were a few of those.

I wonder, though, if the AF method might be a remnant of the old days
when cavalry officers were some of the first aviators. That method is
somewhat common in "old school" equitation instructors. ;-)


I was never a believer in the "Screamer" method--I always found it
much more effective to mutter softly, just above the level of
audibility regarding the student's skill, intellect, breeding,
parentage, education, probable pending demise, and potential for
languishing the next ten years or so in a missile silo in N. Dakota.

When you could see the tears running down the front edge of the oxygen
mask and hear the quiet sobbing in the headset you knew you were at
the top of your game.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
  #33  
Old January 21st 07, 11:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 39
Default Navy Wings?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:41:39 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

I was never a believer in the "Screamer" method--I always found it
much more effective to mutter softly, just above the level of
audibility regarding the student's skill, intellect, breeding,
parentage, education, probable pending demise, and potential for
languishing the next ten years or so in a missile silo in N. Dakota.


Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)

When you could see the tears running down the front edge of the oxygen
mask and hear the quiet sobbing in the headset you knew you were at
the top of your game.


Indeed.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
  #34  
Old January 21st 07, 11:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Mike Kanze
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Posts: 114
Default Navy Wings?

SERGRAD = "SElected and Retained GRADuate" (I think).

"SERGRADed" = Plowed back into the Training Command right after wings to train more studs who then get immediately SERGRADed and train yet more studs, etc.

Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.

--
Mike Kanze

"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."

- Anonymous

"Bob Moore" wrote in message 6.128...
qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

Mike Kanze wrote:
My entire class was SERGRADed.

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.


What's SERGRADed?

Bob Moore
Pensacola Class 12-58
  #35  
Old January 22nd 07, 03:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Carrier
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Posts: 85
Default Navy Wings?


There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.


Also missing, a lick of credibility. The "Been there, done that" factor.

R / John


  #36  
Old January 22nd 07, 04:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Weiss[_1_]
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Posts: 21
Default Navy Wings?

wrote...

Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)


Sorry... He swished his cape a couple times too many for me.

He may have been a powerful TV and book presence, but as Bishop of the
Rochester, NY diocese (late 60s) he was an abysmal failure.

Just another example of 'TV is better than reality"...


  #37  
Old January 22nd 07, 04:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Weiss[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Navy Wings?

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command
tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.


That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the LATE
70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...

The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed the
Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
to learn anything at BUPERS?!?


  #38  
Old January 22nd 07, 05:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 39
Default Navy Wings?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:54:31 -0800, "John Weiss"
jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet wrote:

wrote...

Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)


Sorry... He swished his cape a couple times too many for me.

He may have been a powerful TV and book presence, but as Bishop of the
Rochester, NY diocese (late 60s) he was an abysmal failure.

Just another example of 'TV is better than reality"...


I was commenting on his ability as an orator.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
  #39  
Old January 22nd 07, 05:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39
Default Navy Wings?

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:57:52 -0800, "John Weiss"
jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet wrote:

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command
tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.


That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the LATE
70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...

The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed the
Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
to learn anything at BUPERS?!?


BUPERS is like the Bourbon Kings of France: they forget nothing and
learn nothing.

And it's not just in detailing. There was a period where I worked in
NLSO Corpus prosecuting court martials and doing admin discharge
boards. It was very frustrating, because there is a principle in
Military Law that the government must follow its own rules. I was
talking to a CDR at the Bureau about the application of a rule and how
the Bureau was disregarding the BUPERS Manual. He then informed me,
in no uncertain terms, that since the Bureau wrote the Manual they did
not have to follow it. As luck would have it that very morning I'd
been handed my ass, sliced and diced, by a Miltary Judge over just
this issue. For the first time, and last time, in my Naval Career I
lost my temper with a senior officer. In informed him, by chapter and
verse, that he was ****ed up as Hogan's Goat and I was really tired of
being reamed by a judge on the record because stooges like himself
thought they walked on water. It went downhill from there. After I
hung up on him I went down to the COs office and turned myself in.
He'd already had a conference with the MJ (who said the chewing out
was nothing personal nor was it a negative reflection on the job I did
as a prosecutor, but as the Trial Counsel I represented the Government
and he had to put the Government's failings on the record). He made
me repeat my characterizations of the CDR and his boss, suggested that
I was probably well advised to watch my tongue, and said he'd take
care of it. I never heard anything more.

I had many other dealings with the Bureau over the years, both a
personal and professional level. Seldom was I impressed.


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
  #40  
Old January 22nd 07, 01:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
John Carrier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 85
Default Navy Wings?

We hired a well-regarded retired 3 star for a BRAC defense of our TRACOM
base. We were discussing the issue of pilot training numbers and the impact
on the Navy's ability to produce aviators. USAF manages its pilot flow
moderately well. They were transitioning a base for additional training.
When asked why the Navy seemed unable to manage pilot training (either too
few or too many) the 3-star triumphantly announced "The Navy manages year
groups, not pilots" as if that was somehow a good thing.

OBTW, my year group opportunity for command was about 40%. Three years
later there were more commands than aviators in the year group. Some
management.

R / John

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:57:52 -0800, "John Weiss"
jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet wrote:

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training
Command
tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.


That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the
LATE
70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...

The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed
the
Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
to learn anything at BUPERS?!?


BUPERS is like the Bourbon Kings of France: they forget nothing and
learn nothing.

And it's not just in detailing. There was a period where I worked in
NLSO Corpus prosecuting court martials and doing admin discharge
boards. It was very frustrating, because there is a principle in
Military Law that the government must follow its own rules. I was
talking to a CDR at the Bureau about the application of a rule and how
the Bureau was disregarding the BUPERS Manual. He then informed me,
in no uncertain terms, that since the Bureau wrote the Manual they did
not have to follow it. As luck would have it that very morning I'd
been handed my ass, sliced and diced, by a Miltary Judge over just
this issue. For the first time, and last time, in my Naval Career I
lost my temper with a senior officer. In informed him, by chapter and
verse, that he was ****ed up as Hogan's Goat and I was really tired of
being reamed by a judge on the record because stooges like himself
thought they walked on water. It went downhill from there. After I
hung up on him I went down to the COs office and turned myself in.
He'd already had a conference with the MJ (who said the chewing out
was nothing personal nor was it a negative reflection on the job I did
as a prosecutor, but as the Trial Counsel I represented the Government
and he had to put the Government's failings on the record). He made
me repeat my characterizations of the CDR and his boss, suggested that
I was probably well advised to watch my tongue, and said he'd take
care of it. I never heard anything more.

I had many other dealings with the Bureau over the years, both a
personal and professional level. Seldom was I impressed.


Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



 




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