US Club Class Participation

In a couple earlier threads related to a proposed Club class, I asked
pilots who
don't compete now, but would if we created a Club class, to reply
either on line or to me as RC chair. I indicated I would report the
result.
The response, surprisingly, was no replys.
The element we are looking for is how much increased participation
could come about if we create a seperate class.
So- I'll ask again, maybe in a slightly different way:
1) If you are not currently competing, would the creation of a Club
class bring you in to participation.
2) If you currently compete, or used to compete, would you acquire a
glider to participate in this new class?

If you don't like the wording of my questions, feel free to answer in
your own way.
The key element we are trying to quantify is how development of
another class will increase participation. We already know that some
pilots who own gliders in the Club handicap range would participate.
They affect entry activity as a net zero.

Thanks for your input.

Note: This is an informal poll pole by the RC Chair

H Nixon UH

I've been involved in some of these earlier threads, but let me try to
directly respond in a concise manner:

(I am a 200hr Private Pilot with 100 hours in Gliders, and as the
relatively new owner of an early DG-300)

1) No. I already planned to enter the Sports Class in 2009. It seems
like a pretty good avenue for getting started in competition: No
ballast, run-what-ya-brung, simple (non-approved) GPS/loggers allowed,
etc. I am not familiar with all of the complications and restrictions
that a Club Class would bring, but as a newcomer to competition I want
the _fewest_ number of rules/equipment complications so that I can
concentrate on the race schedule and learning how to fly race tasks.

2) Have not competed yet.

Thanks,

--Noel

The population you are looking for consists of pilots who could fly
Sports (or an FAI class) now and choose not to, but who would enter
Club Class if offered.

If there is any such population, it is probably very small. I have
never met a soaring pilot who gave any evidence of thinking along
those lines. Usually, for those interested in racing but not
competing, it's a entry barrier problem. Equipment ($$), skill set,
confidence, time. Sports has lower entry barriers than Club, so
addition of Club doesn't change this.

-T8

Hello Hank,

I haven't followed this at all, but here are some thoughts:

If the class was a narrow performance spread such as Libelle though
early Discus - no flaps, no winglets, no extra fairings, no water, all
handicapped, it might appeal to a large group.

The performance is enough alike that the tasks would be flown in
gaggles of very similar performing gliders. Pilots like flying
together.

The current Sports Class favors high wing loading, small fuselage,
modern gliders - no way around it, so it dissuades many from
attending. Still, Sports Class is very popular in certain venues such
as The Seniors, possibly because of the friendly, low-key social
nature.

Sports Class contests could be encouraged to award a special trophy to
the best Club Class glider.

Tom Knauff

Hello UH,

I look forward to competing in Club Class.

I have competed in Sports Class and have thoroughly enjoyed it, but I
want to compete in a Club Class because:

1. The ships should be of similar performance. I won't be flying my
LS1-d against Ventii or ASW-27's, etc.
2. Hopefully, the handicaps will be "fair". Maybe follow the IGC/WGC
on Club Class handicaps.
3. Possibly get "close" to an Assigned task. Right now, it's
possible for the CD to call TAT with up to a 30 mile radius. Holy
Mackeral! For some of us, going from one side of the turnpoint to the
other is a task all by itself. If the turn point radius were made
smaller, it would require us, now flying very similar aircraft, to fly
in pretty similar air. And not spread us out across several
counties. I can see the need for large turn areas if the gliders are
extremely dissimilar in performance or the weather is iffy (like out
in the western part of the U.S. and there's a chance to see and avoid
storms), but keeping similar gliders on the same task would be more
fun. I might learn a bit more if I had a chance to actually see
someone on course. The large radii spreads us out too much. Might as
well be flying completely different courses.
4. And I will lobby my friends who fly Club Class ships to come join
the fun. At our club, we were successful for the 2007 and 2008
seasons in bringing in one new pilot each season to Sports Class and
they had a blast, and they'll be back. I hope to do the same for Club
Class and hope I can find more than the two from our club.

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

On Oct 17, 12:14*pm, rlovinggood wrote:
Hello UH,

I look forward to competing in Club Class.

I have competed in Sports Class and have thoroughly enjoyed it, but I
want to compete in a Club Class because:

1. *The ships should be of similar performance. *I won't be flying my
LS1-d against Ventii or ASW-27's, etc.
2. *Hopefully, the handicaps will be "fair". *Maybe follow the IGC/WGC
on Club Class handicaps.
3. *Possibly get "close" to an Assigned task. *Right now, it's
possible for the CD to call TAT with up to a 30 mile radius. *Holy
Mackeral! *For some of us, going from one side of the turnpoint to the
other is a task all by itself. *If the turn point radius were made
smaller, it would require us, now flying very similar aircraft, to fly
in pretty similar air. *And not spread us out across several
counties. *I can see the need for large turn areas if the gliders are
extremely dissimilar in performance or the weather is iffy (like out
in the western part of the U.S. and there's a chance to see and avoid
storms), but keeping similar gliders on the same task would be more
fun. *I might learn a bit more if I had a chance to actually see
someone on course. *The large radii spreads us out too much. *Might as
well be flying completely different courses.
4. *And I will lobby my friends who fly Club Class ships to come join
the fun. *At our club, we were successful for the 2007 and 2008
seasons in bringing in one new pilot each season to Sports Class and
they had a blast, and they'll be back. *I hope to do the same for Club
Class and hope I can find more than the two from our club.

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

So far, we are at zero incremental participation. Let's hear from
pilots who won't fly sports class but would fly club class.

BTW I think I've only flown 2 ATs in the past three years flying in 15
meter class, so the idea that a club class would lead to a lot more
flying with other gliders is likely a fantasy. The TAT and MAT tasks
were developed to allow for variations in pilot experience at least as
much as for differences in glider performance.

9B

On Oct 17, 10:55 am, wrote:
In a couple earlier threads related to a proposed Club class, I asked
pilots who
don't compete now, but would if we created a Club class, to reply
either on line or to me as RC chair. I indicated I would report the
result.
The response, surprisingly, was no replys.
The element we are looking for is how much increased participation
could come about if we create a seperate class.
So- I'll ask again, maybe in a slightly different way:
1) If you are not currently competing, would the creation of a Club
class bring you in to participation.
2) If you currently compete, or used to compete, would you acquire a
glider to participate in this new class?

If you don't like the wording of my questions, feel free to answer in
your own way.
The key element we are trying to quantify is how development of
another class will increase participation. We already know that some
pilots who own gliders in the Club handicap range would participate.
They affect entry activity as a net zero.

Thanks for your input.

Note: This is an informal poll pole by the RC Chair

H Nixon UH

Hi UH,

First to answer or comment on your questions.

1. I already participate in the Sports Class, so I guess I really
can't answer this question as asked. However, does a new class really
have to draw more contestants to be valid? I think the current Sports
Class participant pool is large enough to spin off the Club Class and
still flourish.

2. My old Libelle is at the low end of the Club Class, so I'm all set
for now. (But when I get in a position to afford a new generation
ship, I'm going to say goodbye to Sports/Club Class and fly it in the
class it was designed for).

Now for my thoughts: Sports Class is a great concept and unarguably
successful. That success is powerful evidence that we do need an
"entry and exit" class as some call it (and I thought Standard was the
exit class :-). Regardless of it's success, there are some issues with
Sports Class that would be best addressed by establishing a Club Class
separate from Sports. 1) Sports has become so competitive, it is
drifting from it's concept as the entry and exit class. 2) The
validity of handicapping is always going to be arguable. Handicapping
would be less of an issue in Club Class due to the narrower range of
glider performance. 3) Appropriate tasking is a problem when the
performance range is extreme. If someone shows up in a Blanik, Ka-8,
or heaven help, a 1-26, it's difficult to put together a task that
will allow the low performance ships to get around the course and not
send the higher performance ships to the back of the turn cylinder
each day and still finish under time. Turn areas can only be made so
big before they start overlapping, and that ain't okay by the rules.
The Sports Class rules also deprive us of the chance to fly a good ol'
assigned task (and too often we fly the reviled MAT).

So, I think we have an opportunity here. The Club Class already exists
in a developed form in Europe, so we don't have to create it from
scratch. We could give a Club Class a try, in addition to, or in
conjunction with Sports Class. Club Classers can have the competitive,
challenging racing they want, Sports Class doesn't have to change (and
might become truer to it's purpose with somewhat "relaxed" tasks).
What's the real downside of having more choices? New racers with Club
Class ships can elect to fly Sports or Club Class. Highly competitive
pilots with high end ships can race in the class their ship was
designed for or they can dial it back and play in Sports. I say let's
give it a try and see how it goes. If Club Class can't support itself
or if it begins to disrupt the Sports Class, then we can ditch it.

Respectfully,

WB

I was going to stay out of this, but what the hey!

Who buys a Libelle, Cirrus, LS-1, etc? Probably a new-be, right? Is he/
she likely to race it? Probably not, at least not right away. I tried
to get a Duster class going 38 years ago, there was a bunch of them
flying so I called for an informal competition. Who showed up? Just 3
and only one had any cross-country experience.

We are combining classes right now just to make ends meet. Montague
next year is hosting open nats, standard nate and a regionals. There
is a good chance they won't get over 30 total. Will the organizers be
able to pay all the bills? Will they likely bid to do that again, if
not?

Tasking is a problem in sports class where only MAT's and TAT's are
allowed due to vast differences in ships being flown. Some creative
tasking on the part of the CD could call a MAT with 5 or 6 turn-points
so that only the supper ships could do it all. Bring them back near
home about half way through and let the club ships quit if their time
is up. That's exactly what was intended when this task was introduced,
but it has become too easy to just call 1 turn or (no turns) and let
the CD off the hook.
JJ

WB wrote:
On Oct 17, 10:55 am, wrote:
In a couple earlier threads related to a proposed Club class, I asked
pilots who
don't compete now, but would if we created a Club class, to reply
either on line or to me as RC chair. I indicated I would report the
result.
The response, surprisingly, was no replys.
The element we are looking for is how much increased participation
could come about if we create a seperate class.
So- I'll ask again, maybe in a slightly different way:
1) If you are not currently competing, would the creation of a Club
class bring you in to participation.
2) If you currently compete, or used to compete, would you acquire a
glider to participate in this new class?

If you don't like the wording of my questions, feel free to answer in
your own way.
The key element we are trying to quantify is how development of
another class will increase participation. We already know that some
pilots who own gliders in the Club handicap range would participate.
They affect entry activity as a net zero.

Thanks for your input.

Note: This is an informal poll pole by the RC Chair

H Nixon UH

Hi UH,

First to answer or comment on your questions.

1. I already participate in the Sports Class, so I guess I really
can't answer this question as asked. However, does a new class really
have to draw more contestants to be valid? I think the current Sports
Class participant pool is large enough to spin off the Club Class and
still flourish.

2. My old Libelle is at the low end of the Club Class, so I'm all set
for now. (But when I get in a position to afford a new generation
ship, I'm going to say goodbye to Sports/Club Class and fly it in the
class it was designed for).

Now for my thoughts: Sports Class is a great concept and unarguably
successful. That success is powerful evidence that we do need an
"entry and exit" class as some call it (and I thought Standard was the
exit class :-). Regardless of it's success, there are some issues with
Sports Class that would be best addressed by establishing a Club Class
separate from Sports. 1) Sports has become so competitive, it is
drifting from it's concept as the entry and exit class. 2) The
validity of handicapping is always going to be arguable. Handicapping
would be less of an issue in Club Class due to the narrower range of
glider performance. 3) Appropriate tasking is a problem when the
performance range is extreme. If someone shows up in a Blanik, Ka-8,
or heaven help, a 1-26, it's difficult to put together a task that
will allow the low performance ships to get around the course and not
send the higher performance ships to the back of the turn cylinder
each day and still finish under time. Turn areas can only be made so
big before they start overlapping, and that ain't okay by the rules.
The Sports Class rules also deprive us of the chance to fly a good ol'
assigned task (and too often we fly the reviled MAT).

So, I think we have an opportunity here. The Club Class already exists
in a developed form in Europe, so we don't have to create it from
scratch. We could give a Club Class a try, in addition to, or in
conjunction with Sports Class. Club Classers can have the competitive,
challenging racing they want, Sports Class doesn't have to change (and
might become truer to it's purpose with somewhat "relaxed" tasks).
What's the real downside of having more choices? New racers with Club
Class ships can elect to fly Sports or Club Class. Highly competitive
pilots with high end ships can race in the class their ship was
designed for or they can dial it back and play in Sports. I say let's
give it a try and see how it goes. If Club Class can't support itself
or if it begins to disrupt the Sports Class, then we can ditch it.

Respectfully,

WB

On Oct 18, 1:12*am, WB wrote:
On Oct 17, 10:55 am, wrote:



In a couple earlier threads related to a proposed Club class, I asked
pilots *who
don't compete now, but would if we created a Club class, to reply
either on line or to me as RC chair. I indicated I would report the
result.
The response, surprisingly, was no replys.
The element we are looking for is how much increased participation
could come about if we create a seperate class.
So- I'll ask again, maybe in a slightly different way:
1) If you are not currently competing, would the creation of a Club
class bring you in to participation.
2) If you currently compete, or used to compete, would you acquire a
glider to participate in this new class?

If you don't like the wording of my questions, feel free to answer in
your own way.
The key element we are trying to quantify is how development of
another class will increase participation. We already know that some
pilots who own gliders in the Club handicap range would participate.
They affect entry activity as a net zero.

Thanks for your input.

Note: This is an informal poll pole by the RC Chair

H Nixon *UH

Hi UH,

First to answer or comment on your questions.

1. I already participate in the Sports Class, so I guess I really
can't answer this question as asked. However, does a new class really
have to draw more contestants to be valid? I think the current Sports
Class participant pool is large enough to spin off the Club Class and
still flourish.

2. My old Libelle is at the low end of the Club Class, so I'm all set
for now. (But when I get in a position to afford a new generation
ship, I'm going to say goodbye to Sports/Club Class and fly it in the
class it was designed for).

Now for my thoughts: Sports Class is a great concept and unarguably
successful. That success is powerful evidence that we do need an
"entry and exit" class as some call it (and I thought Standard was the
exit class :-). Regardless of it's success, there are some issues with
Sports Class that would be best addressed by establishing a Club Class
separate from Sports. 1) Sports has become so competitive, it is
drifting from it's concept as the entry and exit class. 2) The
validity of handicapping is always going to be arguable. Handicapping
would be less of an issue in Club Class due to the narrower range of
glider performance. 3) Appropriate tasking is a problem when the
performance range is extreme. *If someone shows up in a Blanik, Ka-8,
or heaven help, a 1-26, it's difficult to put together a task that
will allow the low performance ships to get around the course and not
send the higher performance ships to the back of the turn cylinder
each day and still finish under time. Turn areas can only be made so
big before they start overlapping, and that ain't okay by the rules.
The Sports Class rules also deprive us of the chance to fly a good ol'
assigned task (and too often we fly the reviled MAT).

So, I think we have an opportunity here. The Club Class already exists
in a developed form in Europe, so we don't have to create it from
scratch. We could give a Club Class a try, in addition to, or in
conjunction with Sports Class. Club Classers can have the competitive,
challenging racing they want, Sports Class doesn't have to change (and
might become truer to it's purpose with somewhat "relaxed" tasks).
What's the real downside of having more choices? New racers with Club
Class ships can elect to fly Sports or Club Class. Highly competitive
pilots with high end ships can race in the class their ship was
designed for or they can dial it back and play in Sports. I say let's
give it a try and see how it goes. If Club Class can't support itself
or if it begins to disrupt the Sports Class, then we can ditch it.

Respectfully,

WB

This hits the nail on the head I think. Club class is meant to be the
path to world racing, not the entry to competition flying. Who starts
competition flying by going out and buying a brand new ASG-29 so
they can jump into 18 meter class? On the other hand, what about
those of us with something that hasn't been competitive for 20 years
and can't afford or don't want to trade up? Where do we go after
Sports class?

I'll circle back to world competitiveness, too. If we have a class
designed for "newbies" and "old guys", is that really the best pool
of pilots to be selecting our world championship fliers from?

-- Matt

I would be interested in flying club class if it consisted of assigned
tasks only. I have been flying gliders all of my life and grew up
crewing at several contests per year. I lost interest in racing when
the rules got so convoluted that it ended up more like a chess match
than a race.

Those "racers" out there getting ready to lamb baste me right now
should realize that I don't really care, because I lost all hope of
"racing" gliders 20+ years ago.

Paul Gravance