$75,000 2-33

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 9:19:09 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
What it really needs is an autopilot and cup holders.

Oh - and some fuzzy dice...

66

Guys, guys.... Geesh.
Can't you even give them credit for jacking up a data plate and making a gorgeous glider under it? The prep of the steel, the recover, the shiny-shiny paint in very tasteful colors. Fresh plexi and a complete smooth interior.. New Belts! A very professional looking wiring job and clean panel. At least this one looks like it won't have fabric fairing to the skid, and creating a fabric flash off on her first landing. (That's a true story.) Using the ballast tray area for a solid battery install that addresses CG.

I wouldn't be using all the electric stuff in the panel, but hey, as a systems trainer? At least I can see over the trainee's shoulder for what they're switching/changing, unlike an Arcus. And it will get you off the ground, unlike a Condor simulator.

So - just celebrate someone's nearly bottomless checkbook. And the anticipated return-to-service of a venerable machine. This set of tube-fuselage will likely be flying after I am wafting as ashes in the sky. And we should appreciate that.

Thanks, Caprock men. But, she's beyond my checkbook . . . .

Cindy
a 2-33 back-seater

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:59:24 PM UTC-7, CindyB wrote:
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 9:19:09 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
What it really needs is an autopilot and cup holders.

Oh - and some fuzzy dice...

66

Guys, guys.... Geesh.
Can't you even give them credit for jacking up a data plate and making a gorgeous glider under it? The prep of the steel, the recover, the shiny-shiny paint in very tasteful colors. Fresh plexi and a complete smooth interior. New Belts! A very professional looking wiring job and clean panel. At least this one looks like it won't have fabric fairing to the skid, and creating a fabric flash off on her first landing. (That's a true story.) Using the ballast tray area for a solid battery install that addresses CG.

I wouldn't be using all the electric stuff in the panel, but hey, as a systems trainer? At least I can see over the trainee's shoulder for what they're switching/changing, unlike an Arcus. And it will get you off the ground, unlike a Condor simulator.

So - just celebrate someone's nearly bottomless checkbook. And the anticipated return-to-service of a venerable machine. This set of tube-fuselage will likely be flying after I am wafting as ashes in the sky. And we should appreciate that.

Thanks, Caprock men. But, she's beyond my checkbook . . . .

Cindy
a 2-33 back-seater

Now, now....Cindy....This is all done in good fun....and after all this is RAS! Did you expect anything different? Now, given the price of $75 large for a 2-33, I just cannot wait to see someone ask for $100K for a 1-26A!! ;-)

So, in conclusion, just when you think you have seen it all.....you have not!

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 11:59:24 AM UTC-8, CindyB wrote:
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 9:19:09 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
What it really needs is an autopilot and cup holders.

Oh - and some fuzzy dice...

66

Guys, guys.... Geesh.
Can't you even give them credit for jacking up a data plate and making a gorgeous glider under it? The prep of the steel, the recover, the shiny-shiny paint in very tasteful colors. Fresh plexi and a complete smooth interior. New Belts! A very professional looking wiring job and clean panel. At least this one looks like it won't have fabric fairing to the skid, and creating a fabric flash off on her first landing. (That's a true story.) Using the ballast tray area for a solid battery install that addresses CG.

I wouldn't be using all the electric stuff in the panel, but hey, as a systems trainer? At least I can see over the trainee's shoulder for what they're switching/changing, unlike an Arcus. And it will get you off the ground, unlike a Condor simulator.

So - just celebrate someone's nearly bottomless checkbook. And the anticipated return-to-service of a venerable machine. This set of tube-fuselage will likely be flying after I am wafting as ashes in the sky. And we should appreciate that.

Thanks, Caprock men. But, she's beyond my checkbook . . . .

Cindy
a 2-33 back-seater

I see a future SSA Convention talk with Cindy clicking though photos of glider panels in bad states. And asking the audience what upgrades they would do. "Hurry up make a decision, you are running out of budget..." and then "well this is what they did..." (murmurs of discontent, a few gasps).

At 17:07 07 March 2018, wrote:
Just when you thought you've seen it all. Wings and Wheels has listed
a
beautifully restored 2-33 for a mere $75K
http://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds


And an Experimental certificate to boot, so all commercial operators
are excluded. From the one picture, it looks like it may have a nose
wheel instead of a skid. Might that be the STC (non-conforming)
issue?

RO

all pictures i see show a skid.

faa database shows registration as expired.

not a lot of non instrument panel photos of the cockpit but no indication that i see of an "Experimental" placard anywhere. But you are right thats what the ad says.

All i can say is "Wow"

Well, they might have been inspired by the $20,000 1-34 on the same site . . .
ROY

This looks to be a remanufactured 2-33. I picture this:

They added up the cost of materials, hangar rent, utilities, insurance, and kept track of hours of labor spent. The supervised unskilled labor hours they charged at minimum wage. The skilled labor hours they charged at the prevailing rate. Add 5% a year for their 'cost of money', 5% for their trouble and they get an asking price of $75K. $75K +/- is what a remanufactured 2-33 costs.

This true cost of a remanufactured 2-33 tells me that a long term commitment to 2-33s is throwing good money after bad. You can remanufacture a 2-33 piecemeal, spread out of years, or all at once. Maintaining these birds only makes sense in the long run, when and where people donate hours and hours of their time. Sure that still happens and having trained in 2-33s, I'm grateful and appreciative of their generosity, but the people who have that amount of disposable time are ageing out. Most dads and moms nowadays want to spend their 'time off' with their kids and spouses, not in a hangar covered in dust. And speaking as a recently retired person myself, I have better things to do with my time. (In my defense, I've ponied up money to buy two semi-modern trainers for my club, and I volunteer time at my club.)

Now assuming you find people to donate the time to keep your 2-33 airworthy and cosmetically attractive, what do you get from a student's perspective? How much does a minute in the air cost in a 2-33 compare to a minute in the air in a semi-modern trainer like a ASK 21 or PW-6?

The 32:1 glide ratio is a tipping point. If there is lift to be found, a student can stay up for an hour (and learn to soar) in a 32:1 glider that has decent penetration. They can even fly downwind of the airport! Wow. Who knew?

In a 2-33... they had better find lift under the first cloud that they try. More often than not, they need to buy 2-3 tows to get an hour of practice in the air. On the plus side they get more practice at landing, but we all know that 'gaining altitude in lift' is the heroin that hooks us on the sport. If you want to reduce student attrition during training, put them in a ASK-21 or a PW-6.

If you're wanting a stream of students to subsidize club cash flow by buying lots and lots of tows, a 2-33 does a much better job at that than a 32:1 glider.

The 2-33 in question is a unicorn and does not represent reality. Awesome that someone built it. Hilarious that they think there is someone in the world with 75K that shares their vision.
It is worth keeping 2-33s alive. They work, we have plenty of them, lots of clubs can't afford glass trainers. As for keeping them flying. If a guy can't ditch the wife and kids to rebuild a glider then he doesn't have the autonomy to be a soaring pilot. Wives don't value their husband's time by degrees, either he is serving her or himself.
Hour long training flights are overrated. Figure the time between first tow of the day and last. With ground handling/debriefing/pre briefing the next student how many club members can a glider serve in a day if they are all hour long flights?
Granted 2-33s suck in a lot of ways, but most of the problem is pilot vanity. What 2-33s need is a good marketing campaign. Paint shark noses on them or flame jobs, rename them the 'Pilotmaker.' Tell students that NASA trained the original astronauts in 2-33s. If 2-33s were the only gliders we had we'd have tons of fun with them.

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 8:03:02 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
This looks to be a remanufactured 2-33. I picture this:

They added up the cost of materials, hangar rent, utilities, insurance, and kept track of hours of labor spent. The supervised unskilled labor hours they charged at minimum wage. The skilled labor hours they charged at the prevailing rate. Add 5% a year for their 'cost of money', 5% for their trouble and they get an asking price of $75K. $75K +/- is what a remanufactured 2-33 costs.

This true cost of a remanufactured 2-33 tells me that a long term commitment to 2-33s is throwing good money after bad. You can remanufacture a 2-33 piecemeal, spread out of years, or all at once. Maintaining these birds only makes sense in the long run, when and where people donate hours and hours of their time. Sure that still happens and having trained in 2-33s, I'm grateful and appreciative of their generosity, but the people who have that amount of disposable time are ageing out. Most dads and moms nowadays want to spend their 'time off' with their kids and spouses, not in a hangar covered in dust. And speaking as a recently retired person myself, I have better things to do with my time. (In my defense, I've ponied up money to buy two semi-modern trainers for my club, and I volunteer time at my club.)

Now assuming you find people to donate the time to keep your 2-33 airworthy and cosmetically attractive, what do you get from a student's perspective? How much does a minute in the air cost in a 2-33 compare to a minute in the air in a semi-modern trainer like a ASK 21 or PW-6?

The 32:1 glide ratio is a tipping point. If there is lift to be found, a student can stay up for an hour (and learn to soar) in a 32:1 glider that has decent penetration. They can even fly downwind of the airport! Wow. Who knew?

In a 2-33... they had better find lift under the first cloud that they try. More often than not, they need to buy 2-3 tows to get an hour of practice in the air. On the plus side they get more practice at landing, but we all know that 'gaining altitude in lift' is the heroin that hooks us on the sport. If you want to reduce student attrition during training, put them in a ASK-21 or a PW-6.

If you're wanting a stream of students to subsidize club cash flow by buying lots and lots of tows, a 2-33 does a much better job at that than a 32:1 glider.

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 9:50:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Hour long training flights are overrated. Figure the time between first tow of the day and last. With ground handling/debriefing/pre briefing the next student how many club members can a glider serve in a day if they are all hour long flights?

I cited the student's perspective above.

From the perspective of a pilot who comes to the field, takes an aerotow to 1500 AGL, and comes back 4 hours later. Students who help with ground handling for most of the day, who pay for three 3000 AGL tows, really help the cash flow that pays for the fixed expenses associated with the tow plane. It keeps the annual dues low.

Most capable glider pilots in the USA have 'paid their dues' in time and treasure in a 2-33, so it is only fair that new people coming to the sport persevere though this initiation period. If they can't hack it, they don't have the moxie to be a glider pilot.

Okay. Back to my real perspective. I think the cost of remanufacturing a 2-33 all at once reflects the cost of remanufacturing it piecemeal over years (putting a dollar value on volunteer time). Maybe you can do it for less than $75K. IDK. What does K&L charge for a remanufactured 2-33?

Using a 2-33 as bait to attract new pilots has hidden costs. For a variety of reasons, I think it cuts down on the number people that become capable and dedicated glider pilots. It is hard enough progressing in a weekends only club.

Clubs that fly 2-33 often charge a token fee for air time. I'd rather pay for glider rental time and long flight than for lots of tows and short flights. I was happy to pay $1 a minute to do some post-PPL training in a DG1000, and so were a lot of other students. It is a very seductive plane. It opened my eyes to what you can do in a high performance glider, and I wish that I had flown in a plane like that sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure Kyle and Les from K&L read this forum. I don't want to speak for them officially but when I was out there a while ago the completely gone through and restored 2-33 was in the high $40s and a B model, not yet certified, was around $58k. The B model is cool as it fixes or improves so many things - except the performance.

It's a tough deal right now in the market for 2 place, rugged trainers. Not many for sale, lots of really bad ones out there. The 2-33 fleet has aged quite a bit without a "re-set" meaning that there are a lot of bad repairs compounded on top of other bad repairs, lots of neglect and abuse. The days of multiple $7,000 "perfectly good" 2-33s available is long gone. The "club repairs" have taken their toll - I have seen and heard of some horrendous instances of bad maintenance and or repairs, including a number performed by A&P/IAs.

Son of Flubber has a point about the extra time as the few extra minutes per flight or the ability to soar in minimal lift is a difference maker. But - there are things that the 2-33 teaches uniquely/efficiently and it can be a lot more economical to learn in. I'm sure someone has done the metrics (and I know who that is) and as with anything it's a compromise - it's a complex issue as supply/demand, market availability, price points, perception, repair/maintenance capabilities, instructor skill, location of training and other variables all come together to push the decision one way or another..

It's kind of a moot point if there are little or no good 2-33s on the market or the condition of the fleet is so poor there needs to be a heavy investment into reconditioning. What other 2 seater can serve the purpose as a really cheap and durable trainer? New PW-6 is about $85k. Great trainer but in a time where the student starts/finishes, a lot of clubs seeing diminishing participation and the whole sport struggling is pricey.

As usual it's a complex issue with no easy answer.

$75k with that panel - I'm not sure what to even say about that ship - I think someone called it a "unicorn". That about sums it up. It is an indicator of something though........

Regards, Tom