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  #1  
Old February 8th 18, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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"my point exactly Karl! the hard deck does nothing to prevent pilots from attempting climb-outs. "

Once again, the point of the hard deck is not to "prevent" anything. If the pilot in command thinks a climb out is a good idea, he/she should do it. If the pilot in command prefers to land, he/she should do it. The only point of the hard deck is to REMOVE an incentive given by the rules to do one or the other. The point of the hard deck is to leave the pilot in command alone to make a good decision. Often a climb-out is the right decision. Go for it!

John cochrane
  #2  
Old February 8th 18, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 7:37:52 PM UTC, John Cochrane wrote

Once again, the point of the hard deck is not to "prevent" anything. If the pilot in command thinks a climb out is a good idea, he/she should do it. If the pilot in command prefers to land, he/she should do it. The only point of the hard deck is to REMOVE an incentive given by the rules to do one or the other. The point of the hard deck is to leave the pilot in command alone to make a good decision. Often a climb-out is the right decision. Go for it!

John cochrane


The point of the hard deck surely is to try to prevent something; to try to prevent pilots from going lower than the hard deck. Once below it they are out of the game and how they then try to get home would be up to them. The question is how might the presence of the hard deck below affect the decision making of pilots flying above it - particularly those who find themselves close to dropping under it and so incurring a technical land out?
  #3  
Old February 8th 18, 08:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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John, it is not incentivizing taking risk by adding a penalty for doing so. Punitive measures will not prevent bad decisions made 30 minutes prior. Incentivize things by adding points to stay above a hard deck. Carrot v stick type thing. Insurance companies realize they pay less claims when you reduce rates for safe driving. Legislating against stupidity doesn't work too well. Making rules for an occasional stupid decision adds complexity for no real gain. Pilots have died in contests and flying and they will continue to do so regardless of rules. We can save more lives by good training and practicing safe flight management so when we screw up it results in a good story. Safety is a process and worrying about outcome takes us away from being in the process and making the right decision for the next step in the process which if followed results in the desired outcome. glidets can be replaced, people cannot. My view is the glider is absolutely expendable if destroying it removes energy and saves lives of people in the aircraft and on the ground. Do I want to wreck the ship? Not at all but allowing for this let's me focus on the process of being able to tell the story of how I lived and bought another ship. This is my choice just as it is for a racing pilot to take a risk on a low save for points. If this pilot has such an inflated ego or lack of respect for his friends and family to take excessive risk to win a contest only he really cares about then let them as long as their actions don't interfere with others. Safety rules should be put into place where the action of one can effect another. If a pilot wants to risk their own life we should let them.
  #4  
Old February 8th 18, 08:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 2:37:52 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
"my point exactly Karl! the hard deck does nothing to prevent pilots from attempting climb-outs. "

Once again, the point of the hard deck is not to "prevent" anything. If the pilot in command thinks a climb out is a good idea, he/she should do it. If the pilot in command prefers to land, he/she should do it. The only point of the hard deck is to REMOVE an incentive given by the rules to do one or the other. The point of the hard deck is to leave the pilot in command alone to make a good decision. Often a climb-out is the right decision. Go for it!

John cochrane


but so i don't understand john, that sounds a little flimsy or at the very least downright bureaucratic. pardon me for seeming obstinate, but if the hard deck doesn't prevent anything, and people will still have low level mishaps, then the hard deck won't improve contest safety records. if it doesn't do that, then why complicate things with this proposed rule? simply in the name of absolving the competition rules of blame? that's absurd.

anyway, we already have to sign a "WAIVER OF CLAIMS, ASSUMPTION OF LIABILITY, AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT". that's me the pilot saying that i'm legally responsible for my actions and their consequences.

the person to blame for getting smoked by circling at low altitude is always the PIC, never the rules or the contest organizers. the rules never force my hand to do anything.
  #5  
Old February 8th 18, 08:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Amen ND
  #6  
Old February 8th 18, 09:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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BB,

You’ve said several times now (and I agree) that the effect of the hard deck isn’t to reduce incidents of pilots attempting low saves - but you have also said it’s purpose is to eliminate the points incentive for doing so. Since we’ve reasonably established that there’s no competitive advantage to be gained from deliberately planning to go that low I find myself stuck on what the benefit is. Reducing an incentive that you admit won’t alter behavior o outcomes seems like an incentive with zero effect and therefore meaningless from a rule-making perspective.

Help me out - what’s the purpose of eliminating an incentive that’s so dominated by other factors that it doesn’t drive behavior or outcomes?

9B

  #7  
Old February 8th 18, 09:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ND
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On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 4:14:49 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
BB,

You’ve said several times now (and I agree) that the effect of the hard deck isn’t to reduce incidents of pilots attempting low saves - but you have also said it’s purpose is to eliminate the points incentive for doing so. Since we’ve reasonably established that there’s no competitive advantage to be gained from deliberately planning to go that low I find myself stuck on what the benefit is. Reducing an incentive that you admit won’t alter behavior o outcomes seems like an incentive with zero effect and therefore meaningless from a rule-making perspective.

Help me out - what’s the purpose of eliminating an incentive that’s so dominated by other factors that it doesn’t drive behavior or outcomes?

9B


Boom goes the dynamite^ well said.
  #8  
Old February 8th 18, 11:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 1:14:49 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
BB,

You’ve said several times now (and I agree) that the effect of the hard deck isn’t to reduce incidents of pilots attempting low saves - but you have also said it’s purpose is to eliminate the points incentive for doing so. Since we’ve reasonably established that there’s no competitive advantage to be gained from deliberately planning to go that low I find myself stuck on what the benefit is. Reducing an incentive that you admit won’t alter behavior o outcomes seems like an incentive with zero effect and therefore meaningless from a rule-making perspective.

Help me out - what’s the purpose of eliminating an incentive that’s so dominated by other factors that it doesn’t drive behavior or outcomes?

9B


There are two separate aspects to the hard deck. One is to attempt to prevent some behavior. This is in my opinion a fools errand. The other is to keep from tempting others to that behavior who would not ordinarily engage, because it is rewarded with a win. You have invested a week or two weeks and 2000 miles of driving into a contest. You are doing well on the 13th day, but choose not to thermal at 500 ft and land out. Another pilot circles in the same spot at 400 ft and gets away, thrashing you on points that day.

There are numerous stories up thread about this happening.

The direction of encouragement is towards the most risky behavior that survives. We are bottom fishing the behavior continuum for trophies. If the pilot gets away from 400 ft, he doesn't need a retrieve, but the pilot that gave up at 500 ft shouldn't be punished by 5 places in the standings because he chose prudence. The problem in my view is not that saving from 400 ft is slow, there is no doubt about that. But it is very fast compared to a landout, as scored by our points system. On a day when everyone gets back, the couple of guys who dug out from 400 ft are likely way down the board. On a day when they are the only guys who made it back, they place 1 and 2.

There is a secondary aspect: I believe one really should be able to practice for competition. If the 400 ft save is part of competition, then 400 ft thermalling needs to be practiced. I'd like to see an attempt to round up 5 unacquainted instructors from across the country, with a financial interest in their 2 place trainer, who would gladly give instruction in 400 ft saves over say 10 randomly chosen, unfamiliar landing sites. I'll submit you cannot find those, because it will be deemed too dangerous. If it is too dangerous to practice, why is it allowed in competition?
  #9  
Old February 8th 18, 03:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Stu
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OK, this thread has been well beat to death by several thoughtful writers. It is time to hear from the other pilots that fly contests.
I have been flying contests since 1987. Only fly one regional contest per year and have done fairly well in the rankings. I would estimate that I get low (under 1,200 ft.) maybe once every other contest. Don’t think I have ever had a save under 500 ft., but am comfortable climbing out from 600 ft. (given very good landing options). I would agree with those that state there is no advantage to getting low and having a save – it usually costs significant extra time to climb out because the low saves are not normally the best thermals. I would say that I have won several contests because I was able to climb out from low saves (in fairly strong thermals).

I do believe that I would fly slightly more conservative if there were a Hard Deck, however, I think there would be situations where I may still get low. Once low, then the Hard Deck would not change my thermaling at or below the Hard Deck. If I broke the hard deck I would still thermal at a level that I would be comfortable. How low I would thermal would depend on the landing options but the Hard Deck would in no way affect my decision.
So in a nut shell, I do not support a Hard Deck. Let’s hear form other pilots that regularly fly contests.

Stu Larimore
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  #10  
Old February 8th 18, 05:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Branko Stojkovic
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I agree with Stu.

Branko Stojkovic
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