Russia to approve new Moon rocket

On Mar 17, 12:49*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Bluuuue Rajah wrote:
This will mark the first time since 1964 that the Russian space
programme has made the Moon its main objective.

I wonder if they'll actually make it to the Moon this time around?

* * * * Yousuf Khan

Are you suggesting those Russians are incapable, or just stupid?

~ BG

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 22:19:56 -0700 (PDT), BradGuth
wrote:


Why not use the 100% reliable and 30% inert massive Saturn 5
configuration?

Why reinvent the wheel?

Even if the plans were available (I think NASA says they are, other
documentaries say they aren't), I doubt that some 30 years later that
any of the tooling, materials, electronics, et al are still in
existance to build another Saturn V even if they did want to.

From what I understand, that's why they're designing and building a
completely new one (Ares) for Moon, Mars, and Beyond:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/co...res/index.html

Could be wrong though.

Saturn V must have been incredible to see launch though. I've only
seen the display at Kennedy Space Center... massive......

aglooka wrote in news:c986s4d2rggvg1ob7t2ulcvttss1br670r@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:22:05 -0800, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:

Energia put Mir up (over several launches).

Afaik, The Energia was only used for 2 launches: one put the Buran
into orbit and one carried the secret Polyus "combat" satellite.

The Mir was luanched using Proton.

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a showpiece so
they could boast that they were keeping up with the west, much like the
latest moonshot plans.

BradGuth wrote in
:

On Mar 16, 4:19*pm, Bluuuue Rajah Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote:
Russia to approve new Moon rocket *
By Anatoly Zak
Science reporter *

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7946689.stm

Russia is developing a new generation of space vehicles

Russian space officials are to select the winning proposal for a new
rocket intended to carry cosmonauts on missions to the Moon.

This will mark the first time since 1964 that the Russian space
programme has made the Moon its main objective.

It will be only the second time since the collapse of the Soviet
Union that Moscow has endorsed the development of a new space
vehicle.

The rocket is expected to fly its first test mission in about 2015.

According to the objectives given by the Russian space agency
(Roscosmos) to industry, a future rocket should be able to hoist a
payload three times heavier than Russia's veteran Soyuz spacecraft,
including twice the number of crew, and use environmentally friendly
propellants.

The development of the new rocket should be accompanied by work on
Russia's next-generation manned spacecraft, which will use it to get
into orbit.

Russian space officials say the yet-to-be-named rocket should carry
its first manned spacecraft in 2018. The project was timed to roughly
coincide with the US space agency's (Nasa) plans to return astronauts
to the Moon by 2020 under its Constellation programme.

Late start

However, in what seems like a case of history repeating itself,
Russia is starting late in its bid to beat the US - and potentially
China - to the Moon.

In 1961, President John F Kennedy met the Soviet challenge in space
by launching the original US lunar effort.

Yet the Soviet government waited until 1964 before committing itself
to the costly expenditure of a manned landing.

The Kremlin ultimately aborted the monumental effort after the Apollo
11 lunar module touched down on the Moon first.

In a 21st Century version of this Moon race, the US, Europe, China,
India and Japan had all declared their intention to explore Earth's
natural satellite, while Russia struggled to emerge from its
post-Soviet economic crisis.

As Nasa starts unveiling the first prototypes of US rockets and
spacecraft for lunar expeditions, Roscosmos is only starting its
lunar programme.

To make matters worse, along with the new fleet of rockets and
spacecraft which need to be built, the Russian government committed
in 2007 to moving its main space launch site from the Baikonur
Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan to Vostochny in Russia's Far East.

The new rocket is intended to carry a manned capsule to the Moon

In 2008, Roscosmos finally started quietly soliciting proposals from
the industry to develop a brand-new rocket which could support lunar
expeditions. All major Russian space firms reportedly vied for the
government contract to build the vehicle.

While Roscosmos had never publicised details of the bidding process,
a number of Russian space officials hinted that they were close to
choosing a winner at the beginning of 2009.

On 14 March, Alexander Chulkov, head of the rocket and launch
facilities directorate at Roscosmos, told BBC News that the agency
would pick a winner by March 25.

"We have a bidding procedure, under which we made a request for
proposals and now will be reviewing those proposals to determine a
prime developer, based on the most interesting project from the cost-
effectiveness point of view," Mr Chulkov said.

He explained that the agency's main requirement for the future manned
rocket was to be able to carry no less than 20 tonnes to low-Earth
orbit, with the maximum capacity of about 23 tonnes.

For comparison, the Soyuz capsule, which Soviet and Russian
cosmonauts have been riding to orbit since 1967, weighs around seven
tonnes. Nasa's Ares-I rocket for the next-generation Orion spacecraft
will be able to lift a total of 25 tonnes.

Everybody wins?

Contenders must also employ non-toxic propellants such as kerosene or
liquid hydrogen on all stages of the vehicle.

According to Mr Chulkov, industry will generally be free to design
the general architecture of the future rocket.

"Roscosmos has its own opinion about the configuration (of the
rocket), which we would like to see, however, we understand there is
some distance between what we want and what might be available,"
Chulkov said. *
The new Russian rocket could take one of several configurations

The decision on the prime developer would clear the way to the
preliminary design phase of the rocket, which was expected to last
for about one year.

"Thus, in 2009 we will start the development of this rocket," Mr
Chulkov said.

Although the Russian space agency is expected to name a single prime
developer, it has been rumoured in unofficial fora that the contract
would distribute various responsibilities for the project among
several major rocket firms.

These include TsSKB Progress in Samara, the developer of the Soyuz
rocket, and KB Mashinostroenia in Miass, a chief developer of
submarine- launched ballistic missiles.

Thus, a bulk of the workforce building Russian rockets today will
remain employed.

How heavy is heavy?

A new rocket for the manned spacecraft is only one component in the
array of hardware which will be required to land humans on the Moon
in the 21st century.

With the multi-launch scenario for a lunar expedition adopted by both
Nasa and Roscosmos, a separate heavy lifting vehicle would be needed
to carry the lunar landing module and the rocket stage to propel it
from the Earth orbit toward the Moon.

However, it seems that Nasa and Russia have drastically different
understanding of what "heavy-lift" means.

While the US space agency embarked on the development of its titanic
Ares-V rocket with a payload capacity target of 145 tonnes, Russian
space officials have indicated a much lower appetite for payload
tonnage.

"In the field of heavy-lifting rockets we have… the yet-to-be-flown
Angara (rocket), while the requirements for the next-generation
rocket are within the same category," Mr Chulkov said.

The Angara rocket, which has been under development since the
mid-1990s, is expected to make its maiden flight in 2011.

It would be capable of carrying as many as 35 tonnes into low-Earth
orbit. But some of its derivatives could lift between 40 and 50
tonnes.

According to documents from the Khrunichev enterprise, developer of
the Angara rocket, up to four launches of the Angara-7 vehicle would
be required to accomplish a single lunar expedition. By comparison,
Nasa can rely on one Ares-I rocket and one Ares-V for each Moon
landing.

Why not use the 100% reliable and 30% inert massive Saturn 5
configuration?

Why reinvent the wheel?

To save both time and money. IIRC, the Ares I is just a shuttle SRM
stacked on top of an Atlas, both of which are off the shelf components.
To reconstruct the Saturn V would actually require effort, but they had
the Ares I designed about two months after Bush announced the new plan.

On Mar 20, 7:44 am, Bluuuue Rajah Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote:
aglooka wrote in news:c986s4d2rggvg1ob7t2ulcvttss1br670r@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:22:05 -0800, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:

Energia put Mir up (over several launches).

Afaik, The Energia was only used for 2 launches: one put the Buran
into orbit and one carried the secret Polyus "combat" satellite.

The Mir was luanched using Proton.

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a showpiece so
they could boast that they were keeping up with the west, much like the
latest moonshot plans.

I think Frank mentioned about observing satellites,
if this is true,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Buran
would have been noticed or not, no ambiguity.
Ken

"Bluuuue Rajah" Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote in message
. 17.102...

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a showpiece so
they could boast that they were keeping up with the west, much like the
latest moonshot plans.

One unmanned flight, apparently successful:

From .http://www.russianspaceweb.com/buran.html
"1988 Nov. 15: 06:00:02 Moscow Time: The Energia super booster carrying an
unmanned Buran reusable shuttle blasted off from Baikonur. 206 minutes or
two orbits later, the Buran automatically landed at the Yubileiniy airfield
at Site 251 in Baikonur."

Vaughn

In rec.aviation.piloting Bluuuue Rajah Bluuuuue@rajah. wrote:
BradGuth wrote in
:


big snip

Why not use the 100% reliable and 30% inert massive Saturn 5
configuration?

Why reinvent the wheel?

To save both time and money. IIRC, the Ares I is just a shuttle SRM
stacked on top of an Atlas, both of which are off the shelf components.
To reconstruct the Saturn V would actually require effort, but they had
the Ares I designed about two months after Bush announced the new plan.

Actually the reseason they would not use the Saturn 5 is that the
Russians don't use American rockets in their space program.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article 02,
Bluuuue Rajah Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote:

aglooka wrote in news:c986s4d2rggvg1ob7t2ulcvttss1br670r@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:22:05 -0800, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:

Energia put Mir up (over several launches).

Afaik, The Energia was only used for 2 launches: one put the Buran
into orbit and one carried the secret Polyus "combat" satellite.

The Mir was luanched using Proton.

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a showpiece so
they could boast that they were keeping up with the west, much like the
latest moonshot plans.

There was at least one unmanned flight, 15 Nov. 1988. Then the project
funding was cut back, and officially ended in 1993.

"vaughn" wrote in
:


"Bluuuue Rajah" Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote in message
. 17.102...

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a
showpiece so they could boast that they were keeping up with the
west, much like the latest moonshot plans.

One unmanned flight, apparently successful:

From .http://www.russianspaceweb.com/buran.html
"1988 Nov. 15: 06:00:02 Moscow Time: The Energia super booster
carrying an unmanned Buran reusable shuttle blasted off from Baikonur.
206 minutes or two orbits later, the Buran automatically landed at the
Yubileiniy airfield at Site 251 in Baikonur."

Another stunning triumph for the motherland.

Steve Hix wrote in
:

In article 02,
Bluuuue Rajah Bluuuuue@Rajah. wrote:

aglooka wrote in
news:c986s4d2rggvg1ob7t2ulcvttss1br670r@ 4ax.com:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:22:05 -0800, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:

Energia put Mir up (over several launches).

Afaik, The Energia was only used for 2 launches: one put the Buran
into orbit and one carried the secret Polyus "combat" satellite.

The Mir was luanched using Proton.

I didn't think the Buran ever flew. I thought it was just a
showpiece so they could boast that they were keeping up with the
west, much like the latest moonshot plans.

There was at least one unmanned flight, 15 Nov. 1988. Then the project
funding was cut back, and officially ended in 1993.

It's parked mext to MFTF-B.