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#131
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 8, 7:11*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jan 8, 5:57*pm, Mark Jardini wrote: I have been told that if lake Tahoe was emptied onto the entire state of California it would cover the whole state 4 inches deep in water. It hardly seems possible when seen from the air. The lake is so small compared to the whole state. Volumes, as oppposed to areas, can be very deceptive to the human eye and mind. The volume of ice on greenland would not seem to possibly be enough to raise the oceans 2-3 feet. And yet it is. Things are quite commonly not what they seem. Mark Jardini Add: John Coleman owns the weather channel. While this gives him a forum from which to sound off, it is *hardly "bona fides" for an informed opinion on climate change. The USGS says a complete melt of the Greenland ice sheet would raise sea level 6.5 meters or 21 feet -http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/*If that melted, there would be enough ice melt elsewhere to double that. Of course, the temperature rise that would do that would cause the ocean waters to expand enough to raise it another 200 feet or so putting 80% of the homes in the world underwater. That much ice melt would expose darker oceans and ground surface so more of the sun's heat would be absorbed instead of reflected back to space. Like most of the climate variables, there's always pesky multiplier effects which makes exact predictions extremely difficult. my house sits at 650 ft msl.............I got it made............... Brad |
#132
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 9, 4:11*pm, bildan wrote:
The USGS says a complete melt of the Greenland ice sheet would raise sea level 6.5 meters or 21 feet -http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/*If that melted, there would be enough ice melt elsewhere to double that. Of course, the temperature rise that would do that would cause the ocean waters to expand enough to raise it another 200 feet or so putting 80% of the homes in the world underwater. Fortunately for us, it didn't melt even in periods in history when it was not only much warmer than now, but also much warmer than anything currently predicted with any level of seriousness. |
#133
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On 9 Jan, 00:57, Mark Jardini wrote:
Add: John Coleman owns the weather channel. While this gives him a forum from which to sound off, it is *hardly "bona fides" for an informed opinion on climate change. As long as he is not being sponsored by the Oil or Coal Industries, I would tend to believe him. The data he presents is accurate as far as I can tell. The UK Government is now running an advertising campaign to persuade us to drive 5 miles less per week to 'save the planet'. Fat lot of difference that will make in our tiny country, compared with all the CO2 and other pollutants being pumped out by US and Far Eastern power stations, manufacturing plants and vehicles. Have we actually proved that CO2 is a greenhouse gas anyway, and should we give up all modern technology because of an unproven mathematical model? Global warming or Climate Change seems to be more of a religion, or political crusade, than hard science. That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to monitor the situation and to improve the model. Derek Copeland |
#134
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 8, 7:57*pm, Mark Jardini wrote:
I have been told that if lake Tahoe was emptied onto the entire state of California it would cover the whole state 4 inches deep in water. According to the Lake Tahoe Vacation Guide http://www.tahoevacationguide.com/laketahoe.html it is 14 inches. 14 inches is geometrically/mathematically correct if the entire state were at the same elevation. Calif is about 404,000 sq. km in projected area and Lake Tahoe contains about 39 trillion gallons of water if one accepts the figures given. That would be 1.48e18 cubic cm / 4.04e16 square cm = 36.6 cm = about 14 inches. But I would think that the peaks in elevation of California exceed the valleys so in "reality" the lowland flooding would exceed 14" and higher ground would be left dry - but that's a bit of a quibble. Thinking of it as 14" is just fine for illustration. Regards, -Doug (It must be winter or why would I bother doing the math?) ;-) |
#135
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 9, 4:27*am, delboy wrote:
On 9 Jan, 00:57, Mark Jardini wrote: Add: John Coleman owns the weather channel. While this gives him a forum from which to sound off, it is *hardly "bona fides" for an informed opinion on climate change. As long as he is not being sponsored by the Oil or Coal Industries, I would tend to believe him. The data he presents is accurate as far as I can tell. The UK Government is now running an advertising campaign to persuade us to drive 5 miles less per week to 'save the planet'. Fat lot of difference that will make in our tiny country, compared with all the CO2 and other pollutants being pumped out by US and Far Eastern power stations, manufacturing plants and vehicles. Have we actually proved that CO2 is a greenhouse gas anyway, and should we give up all modern technology because of an unproven mathematical model? Global warming or Climate Change seems to be more of a religion, or political crusade, than hard science. That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to monitor the situation and to improve the model. Derek Copeland Excellent observation. If one truly believed that human created CO2 is causing the damage that some claim, then the only rational action would be for us all to immediately park our cars/trucks/airplanes etc. and throw away the keys, and disconnect our houses/buildings from electricity/gas.etc. The inconvenience of doing so would be small compared to the advertised consequences of global climate change. ...that is IF one truly believed. Regards, -Doug |
#136
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
Al Gore currently owns several rather large houses. Presumably they
are equipped with air conditioning, heating, lights, large screen TVs, pool heaters, and so forth. But he says that's OK because he is (or would) pay an offsetting "carbon credit tax" which I gather would go towards reforestation or something equivalent. Is that like buying your way into heaven? Gore would be much more credible, at least to me, if he were to *both* downsize/mostly eliminate his energy-hogging abodes and also contribute funds for reforestation etc. He certainly has the money to do the latter. Meanwhile I watch what he does, not what he says, and find his credibility on GCC to be questionable. Regards, -Doug |
#137
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 9, 9:27*am, delboy wrote:
Have we actually proved that CO2 is a greenhouse gas anyway, Yes, of course it has been proven. If you can't accept that then there is never going to be the basis of any form of useful discussion. and should we give up all modern technology because of an unproven mathematical model? No, of course not. This is another of your strawman points in which you appear to put ridiculous words into the mouths of reputable scientists. Global warming or Climate Change seems to be more of a religion, or political crusade, than hard science. Ditto denying global warming. Making strawman arguments doesn't help the deniers' position. That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to monitor the situation and to improve the model. There we agree. |
#138
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 9, 2:19*am, brian whatcott wrote:
Mark Jardini wrote: John Coleman owns the weather channel. While this gives him a forum from which to sound off, it is *hardly "bona fides" for an informed opinion on climate change. Be fair: he does have an undergraduate degree in Journalism, after all. Now I've got to clear the coffee off my keyboard. |
#139
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On 9 Jan, 11:56, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 9, 9:27*am, delboy wrote: Have we actually proved that CO2 is a greenhouse gas anyway, Yes, of course it has been proven. If you can't accept that then there is never going to be the basis of any form of useful discussion. So why isn't the extra CO2 in the atmosphere causing the predicted increase in temperature? Could not any excess CO2 be removed by planting more trees (or at least not chopping down the forests we already have) anyway? and should we give up all modern technology because of an unproven mathematical model? No, of course not. This is another of your strawman points in which you appear to put ridiculous words into the mouths of reputable scientists. Global warming or Climate Change seems to be more of a religion, or political crusade, than hard science. Ditto denying global warming. Making strawman arguments doesn't help the deniers' position. That's not to say that we shouldn't continue to monitor the situation and to improve the model. There we agree. OK, So how do you propose to correct things? Lets suppose we we only generate electricity from solar panels, wind power, hydro-electric dams, tidal barrages and nuclear energy, and that all vehicles are electrically powered. First of all, a lot of exotic materials such as rare earth metals and uranium would be required, which would all have to be mined (environmentally destructive) and processed (heat energy required). Then you need a lot of expensive new infrastructure, and a means of safely disposing of nuclear waste. Finally I understand that would not be enough available copper in the world to wind all the generating sets and electric motors (wars over copper instead of oil?). Could an electric airliner carry enough batteries to also carry a useful payload? If it was nuclear powered, what would happen if it crashed? Alternatively we could go back to living in caves I suppose! Derek Copeland |
#140
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 9, 6:56*am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 9, 9:27*am, delboy wrote: Have we actually proved that CO2 is a greenhouse gas anyway, Yes, of course it has been proven. If you can't accept that then there is never going to be the basis of any form of useful discussion. Of course CO2 is a selective IR filter. That's basic physics. The more interesting question is: what is the effect of changing the atmospheric CO2 concentration? Most of the IR absorption spectrum of CO2 is so strong that at these wavelengths, the little CO2 in the atmosphere is optically dense, and increasing (or decreasing) its concentration has only tertiary and probably unmeasurable effects on climate. There are weaker absorption bands that may make a difference, but some/most(?) of these are in areas of the spectrum where water vapor dominates completely as long as water vapor is present. "Of course it has been proven"? Well, yes, the agenda setters take that view. It's regarded as a weak point of the AGW thesis by some. It's an area that I think deserves particularly careful study, as this is *the* key to the "A" in AGW. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
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