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#11
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Cirrus crash midair
I'm retired now, John. Also for the investigation board.
At this moment I am involved with the selection of candidate pilots for our Air Force as a part timer. Lots of good fun and even self motivating! Loek "John Ward" schreef in bericht ... Hi Bug Dout, Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot, and is still with his country's accident investigation board......, I'm a little hazy re the details of that last bit, but maybe Loek will fill us in a bit. Regards, John Ward "Bug Dout" wrote in message ... "Loek" writes: Mx, Dallas, How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic accident?? They were making quite reasonable conjecture. Indeed the tow plane and glider had the legal right of way. More important as to the cause of the accident, who was going faster? Almost certainly the Cirrus. It's like saying the Hudson River plane was hit by birds. Not so, the plane hit the birds. -- No one is completely unhappy at the failure of his best friend. Groucho Marx |
#12
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Cirrus crash midair
MX,
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason. Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them. The cases I had never were that easy as it looked. There was always something "funny" part of the pyramid. Got to go now. I'll be back tomorrow evening! Cheers, Loek "Mxsmanic" schreef in bericht ... Loek writes: How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic accident?? (low time and failure to give right of way) Ah, you both were there, right? It's a simple process of elimination. VFR conditions, both pilots required to see and avoid, tow plane has the right of way. The Cirrus aircraft failed to see and avoid and failed to yield right of way. There aren't too many other possibilities. It's unlikely to be a mechanical failure or weather. And as I've said, this has happened before, also with a Cirrus. Quite an eerie coincidence. You may have read something I don't know about yet, but until you have proven facts on paper there is no way you can give the Cirrus pilot the blame / fault for this. Sure you can. Unless you can think of some other possible explanation? |
#13
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Cirrus crash midair
"John Ward" writes:
Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot He's a current ass. -- The funny thing about driving your car off a cliff, I bet you're still hitting those brakes. - Jack Handey |
#14
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Cirrus crash midair
"Ian D" writes:
The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives these individuals felt that they could handle any situation. Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he could cheat it in the air. -- The long-lived books of tomorrow are concealed somewhere amongst the so-far unpublished MSS of today. - Philip Unwin |
#15
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Cirrus crash midair
Hi Loek,
Got it! Thanks for the info', mate. :-)) Just out of curiosity, what are your fighter pilots flying these days? Regards, John Ward "Loek" wrote in message ... I'm retired now, John. Also for the investigation board. At this moment I am involved with the selection of candidate pilots for our Air Force as a part timer. Lots of good fun and even self motivating! Loek "John Ward" schreef in bericht ... Hi Bug Dout, Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot, and is still with his country's accident investigation board......, I'm a little hazy re the details of that last bit, but maybe Loek will fill us in a bit. Regards, John Ward "Bug Dout" wrote in message ... "Loek" writes: Mx, Dallas, How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic accident?? They were making quite reasonable conjecture. Indeed the tow plane and glider had the legal right of way. More important as to the cause of the accident, who was going faster? Almost certainly the Cirrus. It's like saying the Hudson River plane was hit by birds. Not so, the plane hit the birds. -- No one is completely unhappy at the failure of his best friend. Groucho Marx |
#16
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Cirrus crash midair
You should have that seen to.
"Bug Dout" wrote in message ... "John Ward" writes: Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot He's a current ass. -- The funny thing about driving your car off a cliff, I bet you're still hitting those brakes. - Jack Handey |
#17
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Cirrus crash midair
In article ,
Bug Dout wrote: "Ian D" writes: The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives these individuals felt that they could handle any situation. Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he could cheat it in the air. I can certainly see where, being a doctor, flying might seem easy by comparison and might not get the respect it deserves. The basic training certainly is easier, just compare the amount of time you need to dedicate to getting, say, a PPL with the amount of time needed for medical school. But just because it's easy to learn the basics doesn't mean you can treat it without respect.... -- Mike Ash Radio Free Earth Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon |
#18
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Cirrus crash midair
Loek writes:
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason. Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them. True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation. Even if something obstructed the pilot's view momentarily or his attention was drawn elsewhere, it's still his fault, as he should have sufficient situational awareness to know of the other aircraft without having to depend on a fraction of a second of perception. What about radio calls? What about traffic patterns? There are multiple ways in which he should have become aware of the other aircraft. Unless the surviving pilot and passengers from the glider can shed some insight into this accident, we may never know what actually happened, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume pilot error until proven otherwise. There's also the eerie coincidence of there being at least one other accident with a Cirrus that happened pretty much exactly the same way, except that there were survivors. |
#19
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Cirrus crash midair
On Feb 9, 6:55*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation. This coming from some-one who has never flown an aircraft in real time. Remember that mixedup's only claim to flying is playing flying simulator games. And as to 'situational awareness' there's an extremely large blind spot in the modern sailplane right under the nose |
#20
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Cirrus crash midair
In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote: Loek writes: I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason. Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them. True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation. It's trivial to imagine many other plausible explanations. The others are not LIKELY, but there are tons of scenarios which are plausible. There's also the eerie coincidence of there being at least one other accident with a Cirrus that happened pretty much exactly the same way, except that there were survivors. You have awfully low standards for eerieness. Two accidents happening the same way that just happened to involve the same type of aircraft is not eerie, it's just happenstance. -- Mike Ash Radio Free Earth Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon |
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