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Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 16th 20, 03:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer”) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product”) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period”) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf

I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.


Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.
  #42  
Old September 16th 20, 04:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 61
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

((meh))

You're a pretty smart guy, 2g. Let's stop splitting hairs here.

The LiFe offers better capacity to weight ratio across the board. The price (I found one for 64 bucks) isn't bad either. Not EVEN a close competition to Bioenno or the rest of the pack.

I paid 10 bucks (It hurt me) for an aged out (imprinted date code) AGM battery (bat-tree if you're from Memphis) and was happy to get it. Two....three seasons tops. I'm not gonna cry. Really.

But do you realistically think the LiFe battery we're talking about will deliver worse performance for the dollar than the AGM I already bought? I don't think so and I bet you don't either. Tell me I'm wrong?

I honestly hope OSTIV steps up and pushes a JAR standard for this for broader acceptance. It's overdue and I think it would pave the way for improvements that could help safety. But then, I've always tried to take the long view on ****. It's just how I roll. But then, I'm not Wes M. so it's not like I know anything.

Respectfully.....
  #43  
Old September 18th 20, 03:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:35:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:
((meh))

You're a pretty smart guy, 2g. Let's stop splitting hairs here.

The LiFe offers better capacity to weight ratio across the board. The price (I found one for 64 bucks) isn't bad either. Not EVEN a close competition to Bioenno or the rest of the pack.

I paid 10 bucks (It hurt me) for an aged out (imprinted date code) AGM battery (bat-tree if you're from Memphis) and was happy to get it. Two....three seasons tops. I'm not gonna cry. Really.

But do you realistically think the LiFe battery we're talking about will deliver worse performance for the dollar than the AGM I already bought? I don't think so and I bet you don't either. Tell me I'm wrong?

I honestly hope OSTIV steps up and pushes a JAR standard for this for broader acceptance. It's overdue and I think it would pave the way for improvements that could help safety. But then, I've always tried to take the long view on ****. It's just how I roll. But then, I'm not Wes M. so it's not like I know anything.

Respectfully.....


Since you addressed me directly I will respond. I was not talking about the cost of LFP vs SLA batteries by any metric - I just commented on the terms in the warranty. A 10-year warranty (which is really just an 8-year warranty) sounds pretty impressive until you find that it doesn't cover loss of capacity:

This Limited Warranty does not cover a Product that has reached its normal end of life due to usage which may occur prior to the Warranty Period. A battery can deliver only a fixed amount of Energy over its life which will occur over different periods of time depending on the application. For example, cycling the battery more than 1 time daily, will cause the normal end of life to occur before the end of the Warranty Period. The Manufacturer reserves the right to
deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period.

Note that the sole arbiter of this clause is not you, but the Manufacturer (them). As they say, the large print giveth and the small print taketh away..

Personally, I am a strong supporter of LFP batteries: I use them in my own glider. The reason is simple: SLA batteries can't provide the energy I need to operate my full glass panel cockpit - not even close. As a plus, I don't expect to have to swap the battery every couple of years, a disagreeable task at best in the ASH26 or 31.

Tom
  #44  
Old September 18th 20, 04:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.

Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer”) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product”) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period”) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf
I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

  #45  
Old September 18th 20, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.

Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer”) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product”) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period”) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff.. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf
I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.

Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.


Jon,

Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:

"The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."

Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary.

To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.

Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.

Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.

This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0.5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below.

My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).

One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).

Tom

  #46  
Old September 18th 20, 10:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,134
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

It says what it says, but capacity is not mentioned. I interpret it it differently than you do. But we have stayed off of topic long enough - even for RAS!


On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 1:27:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.

Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer”) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product”) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period”) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf
I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

Jon,

Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:
"The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."
Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary..

To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.

Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.

Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.

This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0.5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below..

My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).

One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).

Tom

  #47  
Old September 19th 20, 02:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Powersonic "Smart Battery" tested

On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 2:13:32 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
It says what it says, but capacity is not mentioned. I interpret it it differently than you do. But we have stayed off of topic long enough - even for RAS!


On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 1:27:26 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 8:45:33 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
It does not say that. There are exactly 10 exclusions in their warrantee, one of which is if you cycle it more than once per day for 10 years, they might exclude coverage. The word "capacity" in fact does not appear in the warrantee at all. "Defect" is a legal term in most states, not whatever you think it might be. I'd agree that it is really an 8 year warrantee, but in the deep cycle battery business, that is commonly referred to as 10 years, standard industry practice. I defy you to find an 8 year warrantee from anyone else.

Independent tests you can find on the web suggest that the reason they are comfortable making this warrantee is the battery starts with significant extra capacity over the label, to ensure that it maintains capacity for its life.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:58:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 8:44:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Directly quoted from your own link:

"Dragonfly Energy Corp. (“the Manufacturer”) warrants each Dragonfly Energy and Battle Born Batteries branded Li-ion battery (“the Product”) sold by Dragonfly Energy, Battle Born Batteries,
or any of its authorized distributors or dealers, to be free of defects for a period of 10 years (“the Warranty Period”) from the date of sale as determined by either the customer’s sale
receipt, the shipping invoice and/or the battery serial number, with proof of purchase."

Between 8 and 10 years they will only repair not replace, which is the sentence you cherry picked. As I am sure you know, it is universal in battery warrantees to replace for a short period (typically a year or two) then prorate the remedy. Battleborn's warrantee is far longer, and far more inclusive than any deep cycle battery I have ever seen. Unless otherwise excluded (and it is not), a loss of capacity would fall under the legal definition of a defect. This is why in some industries (solar panels for example) the warrantee specifically allows 20% loss of capacity, excluding that as a defect.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 10:33:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 6:09:49 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Not really. There is no exclusion for loss of capacity, there is an energy exclusion defined as cycling the battery more than 1 time per day for the warrantee period. That would be 3650 cycles in 10 years. I think I would be pretty happy with it if it failed after 3650 cycles. That would make it far cheaper than any L.A. battery in $/kW delivered over its life.

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:13:06 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:44:10 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Battleborn have a good reputation among the RV crowd. Also the only one that offers a 10 year (!) warrantee. The other high quality prospect is Victron, who do make a 200 AH, but it isn't drop-in in the sense that no other equipment is required. The Victron are intended for larger installations, so there is an external BMS and disconnects, all very nice stuff. The Battleborn is "drop-in" if there is such a thing for LFP.


On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 3:34:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 5:02:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
No one said Panasonic was an American company. It’s Powersonic we’re talking about.
I'm looking around for a large LiFePO4 battery for a non-soaring use, and there are many companies offering such, but I saw that several of them that are in some sense US-based say that their cells come from China, because currently ALL LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
Better read the warranty: it does not cover loss in capacity, which is regarded as normal use. It only covers defects in components or manufacture.
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wpe...y-Warranty.pdf
I disagree - the words are VERY explicit:

Within the first 8 years of the Warranty Period, subject to the exclusions listed below, the Manufacturer will credit, replace or repair, if serviceable, the Product and/or parts of the Product, if the components in question are determined to be defective in material or workmanship.

And that is an EIGHT YEAR warranty, not 10 years. There IS NO coverage for loss of capacity.
Loss of capacity is not a "defect" - it is a normal consequence of use. It says so in their warranty.

Jon,

Those words are DIRECTLY from the warranty, so, yes, it DOES say that. In particular, they "reserve the right" to make the sole determination:
"The Manufacturer reserves the right to deny a warranty claim if the Product is determined, upon inspection, to be at its normal end of life even if within the Warranty Period."
Thus, the 10 exclusions (which is A LOT) IS NOT exhaustive, but exemplary.

To further complicate the issue, Battle Born does not publish datasheets on their batteries which might give some indication of things like the expected number of charge/discharge cycles. And they don't answer their phone (at least when I tried), so you can't get any answers that way.

Here is a good youtube teardown of a BB battery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI
He expects the battery to deliver 2,000 to 3,000 cycles, but I have found no actual testing that verifies this. The internal build quality does look good.

Another video actually shows an installed RV lithium battery system that lasted 8.5 yr and died because of a combination of design and user errors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0zcRXTDRk
They believe that the batteries would have lasted at least 10 years if these mistakes had not been made. They replaced the batteries with BB batteries which should not repeat these mistakes.

This couple taped an interview with the two BB principals, and at 29:00 they discuss the warranty (which is enlightening):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BgRg6m_bY
The principal battery killer they identify is charging at more than a 0..5 C rate (that is 50A for a 100AHr battery). The previous video also identified heat. Also, LFP batteries can't be charged when it is freezing or below.

My expectations are that LFP will last a lot longer than SLA batteries, which I had to replace every 2 years, but I will believe it when I see it (the batteries might very well outlast me!).

One safety note: one of the videos used non-insulated tools while connecting up their batteries; if a short occurs at any point while making connections you will have molten metal flying out at high velocities. Be VERY CAREFUL while making these connections. One option is to wrap your wrenches with electrical tape or shrink tubing (insulated tools are VERY EXPENSIVE).

Tom


Which is what I was saying since Day One. If users get the number of expected cycles, 3000 to 5000, this should not be an issue. But if they only get 2000 cycles, it could be for a heavy user (daily cycles) as this equates to 5.5 years.

Tom
 




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