USA Proposed Rule Change on Start Time Reporting

In the minutes of the USA Rules Committee is a proposed rules change to Start Time Reporting (see below).

I am concerned about this proposed change for several reasons.

1. The potential change was not included in any previous surveys or open to discussion other than the short comment period provided now.

2. Essentially the proposed rule change would eliminate start time reporting at all levels of US contests.

3. It would make reporting false start times nonpunishable because it is impossible to prove "Deliberate" intent. Current rules when start times are required are black and white, either the start time reported was correct or not within two minutes.

This change would move racing one step closer to being just OLC flying. Without knowing the time the other competitors start you have no idea where you stand when you are flying with others on course.

The FAI contests require start times to be reported and we would once again be moving away from International rules and damaging the US Teams competitive skills.

Racing gliders is not just about going faster, it is about racing smarter and tactics of how you fly with other are critical skills to be competitive at the International level.

If anything we should be requiring start times to be reported at US Nationals, not having them as optional as is the currnet rules. Eliminating them completely is a huge step backwards for the US racing rules and the strength of the US Teams.

Please contact the Rules Committee or leave comments here to stop this unwise change in the rules.

Tim (TT)


Current Rules
10.8.8 Start time reporting
The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be accurate within 2 minutes.
10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)



Proposed Rule
10.8.8 Start time reporting
Start time reporting is optional; such reports shall be transmitted on the contest radio frequency and should be accurate within 2 minutes. Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 3:07:44 PM UTC-5, Tim Taylor wrote:
In the minutes of the USA Rules Committee is a proposed rules change to Start Time Reporting (see below).

I am concerned about this proposed change for several reasons.

1. The potential change was not included in any previous surveys or open to discussion other than the short comment period provided now.

2. Essentially the proposed rule change would eliminate start time reporting at all levels of US contests.

3. It would make reporting false start times nonpunishable because it is impossible to prove "Deliberate" intent. Current rules when start times are required are black and white, either the start time reported was correct or not within two minutes.

This change would move racing one step closer to being just OLC flying. Without knowing the time the other competitors start you have no idea where you stand when you are flying with others on course.

The FAI contests require start times to be reported and we would once again be moving away from International rules and damaging the US Teams competitive skills.

Racing gliders is not just about going faster, it is about racing smarter and tactics of how you fly with other are critical skills to be competitive at the International level.

If anything we should be requiring start times to be reported at US Nationals, not having them as optional as is the currnet rules. Eliminating them completely is a huge step backwards for the US racing rules and the strength of the US Teams.

Please contact the Rules Committee or leave comments here to stop this unwise change in the rules.

Tim (TT)


Current Rules
10.8.8 Start time reporting
The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be accurate within 2 minutes.
10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)



Proposed Rule
10.8.8 Start time reporting
Start time reporting is optional; such reports shall be transmitted on the contest radio frequency and should be accurate within 2 minutes. Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct..

The original purpose of start time recording was to keep the crews involved and also to let the contest organizers know when to expect the fleet back.
It had no objective, as I recall, in providing competitors with tactical information. With fewer crews around these days, the original identified need seems to be dwindling.
UH

I agree Tim. I enjoy hearing when others start. It allows me the chance of understand how I am doing (if I have caught them, or if they have caught me) if I run into them during the task.

Its one of the only parts of most US tasks that makes me feel like I am racing. Even though it may be a wide TAT, it still gives you some idea of how its going so far. The fact is that in most tasks do not feel like like a "race" anymore. They feels like an easter egg hunt. Local knowledge is knowing where the eggs usually are hidden. Everyone fly's around the task area randomly searching for the best easter eggs.

In Minden last summer, "certain" pilots made a point of never calling in their start time. Foolishly, I always did out of respect for my wife. I would fly the whole task, sighting that same glider at various times...including final glide. For 30 minutes we flew along together to the finish. I had no idea what the situation was between us. I had to wait an hour or two to see if he started before or after and see who actually "won!" It would certainly make the flights more fun and more tactical to know your relative start times. No, I was not leeching! We kept leapfrogging each other and were out of sight most of the time! ;-)

I think the result of this proposed rule change will be that not a single pilot calls in. Not only does this make the task less exciting, but it is makes the experience for spectators less exciting. Crews have no idea when to expect you back based on the majority of our tasks including the concept of minimum time.......

Sean

Glider races (Grand Prix being the exception) are time trials and the course distance can vary by ~ 12 miles even in the case of a 2 turn AT. Granted it can be quite amusing to hear the guy you thought you were chasing take a second start, but where's the tactically important info? There isn't any..


-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 4:57:40 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
I agree Tim. I enjoy hearing when others start. It allows me the chance of understand how I am doing (if I have caught them, or if they have caught me) if I run into them during the task.

Its one of the only parts of most US tasks that makes me feel like I am racing. Even though it may be a wide TAT, it still gives you some idea of how its going so far. The fact is that in most tasks do not feel like like a "race" anymore. They feels like an easter egg hunt. Local knowledge is knowing where the eggs usually are hidden. Everyone fly's around the task area randomly searching for the best easter eggs.

In Minden last summer, "certain" pilots made a point of never calling in their start time. Foolishly, I always did out of respect for my wife. I would fly the whole task, sighting that same glider at various times...including final glide. For 30 minutes we flew along together to the finish. I had no idea what the situation was between us. I had to wait an hour or two to see if he started before or after and see who actually "won!" It would certainly make the flights more fun and more tactical to know your relative start times. No, I was not leeching! We kept leapfrogging each other and were out of sight most of the time! ;-)

I think the result of this proposed rule change will be that not a single pilot calls in. Not only does this make the task less exciting, but it is makes the experience for spectators less exciting. Crews have no idea when to expect you back based on the majority of our tasks including the concept of minimum time.......

Sean

The provision for allowing start times to be called in well after the start was put in to make it viable for a pilot to call his start in for the original intended reasons while minimizing the tactical issues. It also left in the ability for pilots to have a sense of how they were doing later in the flight which many really like. Whether I like it is directly related to how I'm doing, I admit it.
If you call in 30 seconds after you start, you are either a chump or making a false start. Or----- Maybe you are letting the guy you would like to fly with know it's time to go. Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
The process will still be there, just a little simpler and not mandatory.
UF

I like hearing/giving start times too, but it is only useful information for the first leg of a TAT. After that it's pretty much irrelevent. Sean, even if you knew the start time of the other pilot, you would have no way of knowing how deep he/she went into the last turn point, so when you were flying neck and neck either one of you could be way ahead of the other. It's often the last pilots to land that win the day...

Matt

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 4:16:09 PM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I like hearing/giving start times too, but it is only useful information for the first leg of a TAT. After that it's pretty much irrelevent. Sean, even if you knew the start time of the other pilot, you would have no way of knowing how deep he/she went into the last turn point, so when you were flying neck and neck either one of you could be way ahead of the other. It's often the last pilots to land that win the day...

Matt

A crew person can report your start time, see below.

10.8.8 Start time reporting
The CD may require pilots to report their start times by radio. The following rules apply:
10.8.8.1 To avoid a penalty (Rule 12.1.4.6), a start time must be reported within 15 minutes after the start is made, and must be
accurate within 2 minutes.
10.8.8.2 Beginning no later than the time of task opening, a contest official designated by the CD shall monitor the contest
frequency, maintain an official list of reported start times and the time the report was received, and confirm receipt of reports.
10.8.8.3 Crews may report start times for pilots by appearing in person before the official designated by the CD.
10.8.8.4 Deliberate mis-reporting of start times can be penalized as Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.)


A different note

On the World level, we reported our start time to our Team captain on our Team frequency. He then submits the time to the CD/Scorer. These start times are checked very carefully and a minor penalty can be applied. Whats extremely important is the Team Captains give precise "time hacks", so the reported time is accurate.

You do not hear when the other countries pilots start over the radio.

UH, is right, as to the "old school" thought on this. Now, at some contests, we are asked to just announce "711 start" with no time, then the CM knows we have gone out on course.

IMHO, a start time is not required, yet a simple "711 start" call should be considered.

Best. #711

It is called adapting to changed circumstances.
In the days of yore, before loggers, the time of smokey barographs and
photos a man sat on the start line recording people crossing it. The radio
call gave him a heads up so he did not miss your start. The max start
height was 3000ft because that was the maximum height he could read the
identification letter/numbers on the bottom of the wing. We have moved on,
the start line is no longer a physical feature on the ground but a lat/long
on the globe. The logger records the crossing of the line and the exact
start time, the need to call an (inaccurate) start time no longer exists so
we do not need the man on the ground recording the (inaccurate) time
anymore. The called start time is of no use, it is not used in the
calculation of the task speeds, the logger time is used for that, it is
redundant, like the max start height, and has been for many years.
Give the people who control your comps a break, and spare a thought for the
competition organisers, their life is made simpler by doing away with
redundant tasks. As a bonus it does away with a lot of radio chatter which
can be quite distracting and I would have thought of doing away with
another opportunity to fall foul of, or have to enforce, an unnecessary
rule would be greeted as a good thing. Winners don't whine :-)

Evan,

Thanks for bringing that up.

I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!

No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.

Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 8:56:10 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Evan,

Thanks for bringing that up.

I forgot to mention this. That is that in the case of the US "version" of an an AT the rules actually (once again), dramatically different than FAI! The U.S. has found a way to molest the AT and morph it into something very different. I'm sure they call it "innovation" or something gratifying. I just say it adds needless complexity which makes it far less of a race. In the US rules, instead of leaving it as pure RACE around the same course, the AT is morphed into a mini TAT. US rules allow the age old TAT tactic of earning extra distance in the turns. Gliders ahead can max distance into the back of the turnpoint (1 mile diameter, around 2 miles extra each turn). Gliders behind can choose to catch back up to the lead gaggle by turning early, sacrificing 2 miles. This isn't a real FAI AT race. It's a mini TAT that actually regenerates the same gaggle!

No wonder you guys think ATs result in gaggles.

Why not just leave at lease one FAI task alone?

Next up... start line vs 10 mile diameter start cylinder.

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