"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message
, Mike
writes
The high-low mix was pioneered during WWII. Both the British and the
U.S. stumbled onto the concept without quite realizing what they were
doing. In the years before the war's outbreak, the British embarked on
a crash program to build eight-gun fighters for the defense of the
home islands. The premier model was the Supermarine Spitfire, one of
the legendary combat aircraft of the 20th century. But the Spitfire
was supplemented by the lesser-known but still capable Hawker
Hurricane. The Hurricane could take on the primary German fighter, the
Messerschmidt Bf -109, only with difficulty,

Not particularly, as the histories show... the Spitfire 1A had the edge on
the 109E, the Hurricane 1A was "merely" its equal.

As the war went on and Spitfires appeared in more substantial numbers,
the Hurricane took on the fighter-bomber role.

So did the Spitfire and Seafi aircraft that had no value once the enemy
air force was defeated, were of limited utility.


I'd look with interest at the USN aircraft of the time: the newer air
superiority fighters (Hellcats and Corsairs, then Bearcats and Tigercats)
all got good at strafing, bombing and rocketing ground targets once they
had shot down every flyable enemy aircraft.


There's also the point that RAF procurement was far less linear of "high
and low end fighter". Even during the Battle of Britain we had the
Hurricane and Spitfire as fighters... plus unfortunate concepts that
didn't work well such as the Defiant and the Blenheim IF, and a few
Whirlwinds that were held back by engine trouble from their full
potential.

Later, we had "fighters" like the Beaufighter and Mosquito VI, which were
fighters in the same way the F-105 was: powerful strike aircraft that were
ill-advised to turn with a small, agile foe but could cruelly punish any
enemy careless enough to get into their sights. We also had the Typhoon,
designed as an air-superiority fighter but highly effective as a strike
aircraft, the Tempest (was it the "high end" or "low end" compared to the
Spitfire?)

Coming into the '60s without a fighter to carry out its basic
missions, the USAF was forced to purchase the F-4 Phantom II,
developed on behalf of the enemy service, the U.S. Navy. While an
excellent aircraft, the F-4 was in many ways the apotheosis of the
fighter-bomber, too heavy and lacking the agility to fill the air-
superiority role.

During the liveliest parts of 1972, USN Phantoms killed six NVAF MiGs for
every aircraft they lost to them, while the USAF managed a 2:1 ratio.
(There are many factors in play for the difference, but it's curious how
smiting two enemy for every loss is considered inadequate...)

Also strange is describing the F-104 as an "indescribable and dangerous
oddity" when it was the 1950s/1960s epitome of John Boyd's Light Weight
Fighter designed in response to user requests post-Korea: a pared-down
airframe optimised for speed, energy and agility, with useless wasteful
boondoggles like long-ranged radar, advanced countermeasures, or
sophisticated weapon-aiming systems left out to optimise the aircraft for
high-speed dogfighting.

Perhaps the USAF had no clear idea what it needed? The F-104 epitomised
most of Boyd's ideals, yet its limited combat service in US hands was less
than stellar. Similarly, the US operated the F-5, another austere, cheap,
agile fighter that should have delighted Boyd, yet chose not to field it
in large numbers at the frontline.

Together, the F-15 and F-16 stand as the most effective fighter team
on record. The F-15 compiled a kill ratio of 105 kills to zero losses.
While the F-16's record was only half that, it more than effectively
filled the swing role as the primary high-speed attack aircraft in
theaters including Serbia and Iraq. Neither aircraft ever suffered a
loss in air-to-air combat.

However, getting there involved breaking most of Boyd's rules. Curiously,
as late as "The Pentagon Paradox", Boyd's supporters were bewailing the
manner in which the F-16 and F-18 were "ruined" by putting the "useless
rubbish" back on them: the same useless equipment that allowed them to be
worldbeating combat aircraft rather than manned target drones.

It would appear that the high-low thesis is as well established as any
military concept ever gets.

What's the "low" option for the US Army's armoured forces? They have a
very definite "high end" war-winner in the M1 Abrams, so where is the "low
end" tank?

Suppose, if things get
hot, our 120 planes are facing five hundred, a thousand, or even more
fifth-generation enemy fighters? (China today fields roughly 2,000
fighter aircraft.) What happens then?

Shades of the 1980s when analysts breathlessly counted every Soviet tank
that could possibly ever be fielded, looked at the latest and best, then
pronounced that we faced "fifty thousand T-80 tanks".

In fact we faced a few hundred T-80s, with a tail of older and less
advanced vehicles, and a notional swarm of warehoused T-34s left over from
the Second World War. Similarly, China's "2,000 fighters" are largely
outdated relics - MiG-21 copies and the like - and China has at least the
same constraints on replacing them one-for-one with modern aircraft as the
US does with maintaining its 1970s numbers while increasing individual
capability.

Many of these Chinese aircraft will have trouble flying to Taiwan, let
alone menacing any US interests less proximate. Unless the US plans to
invade China, then the swarms of elderly Chinese warplanes are prisoners
of their limited endurance.



The F-22 is a ferociously expensive beast, though very capable with it.
However, there is a good argument - though it falls apart against
traditional politicans' short-sightedness - that the design and
development is the key input to maintain capability, and that limited
procurement in the face of a limited threat (what aircraft in hostile
hands, flying today or in the next five years, can seriously discomfit a
F-22?) is a pragmatic response to reality.

The key, which will probably not happen, is to recognise that it's been a
quarter-century since work started on the Advanced Tactical Fighter and
that the next aircraft type needs to start work *now* to keep that
skillbase together and have a candidate ready to buy in 2020 (if hurried)
or 2030 (if no urgent issues arise).

But simply bleating "buy more F-22s!" reads as industry lobbying rather
than rational argument.


The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were basically
equals. the Spit is prettier
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.

as for aerial kill loss ratios, claims well exceed kills that is true for
every war.

Eric Hammel in his Books on Guadalcanal took a perverse delight in exposing
Joe Foss's claims of kills as being hollow
he cross referenced Foss'sclaims with Japanese records and found on several
occasions when Foss had victories, especially multiple victories Japanese
records showed no losses.
and Joe wasn't the only over-claimer

in the days of gunfighters speed, rate of climb and ceilling seemed to
matter more than turning.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 00:54:20 -0500, "Ray O'Hara"
wrote:


The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were basically
equals. the Spit is prettier

The Spitfire and Hurricane were not isolated from one another - in
order to make the Hurricane more competitive against the Bf109, they
got the more powerful versions of the Merlin, with the Spitfire still
able to be superior with the lower powered versions. This was one of
Freeman's decisions to make best use of the available resources.

British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.
Indeed, to say the least.
Cheers,

Paul Saccani,
Perth,
Western Australia

Paul Saccani wrote:
wrote:
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.
Indeed, to say the least.

*Were* exaggerated, at the time, because of confusion (even though both
sides were quite rigorous in their verification) and to help morale.

We still won.

The Germans also overclaimed - their intelligence system several times
reported that the RAF was down to its last few aircraft. It's one
reason why the appearance of the formed-up Big Wing on September 15th
was such a shock.

"Here they come again, the last 20 Spitfires..."

"Alan Dicey" wrote in message
o.uk...
Paul Saccani wrote:
wrote:
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.
Indeed, to say the least.

*Were* exaggerated, at the time, because of confusion (even though both
sides were quite rigorous in their verification) and to help morale.

We still won.

The Germans also overclaimed - their intelligence system several times
reported that the RAF was down to its last few aircraft. It's one reason
why the appearance of the formed-up Big Wing on September 15th was such a
shock.

"Here they come again, the last 20 Spitfires..."


won? the British bombing German cities causing retaliation against London
"won" the battle.

On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 09:58:27 +0000, Alan Dicey
wrote:

Paul Saccani wrote:
wrote:
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.
Indeed, to say the least.

*Were* exaggerated, at the time, because of confusion (even though both
sides were quite rigorous in their verification) and to help morale.

Actually, the poms didn't exaggerate their claims to help moral. They
understated their losses instead.

Their exaggerated claims continue to be used even today. An
interesting issue is that Hurricane units exaggerated their claims
three times more than Spitfire units.

And the biggest exagerators of them all were Defiant units.

The motivations would appear to be more those of the individuals
concerned than any official attempt to exagerate.

Even today, those grotesque exagerations result in difficulties in
understanding the lessons of the battle, particularly the relatively
greater exageration by the Hurricane units versus Spitfire units, and
by "Big Wing" formations versus the smaller formations.

Even today, there are still people who think that the Balboas were a
successful tactic.

We still won.

The Germans also overclaimed - their intelligence system several times
reported that the RAF was down to its last few aircraft.

They did, but your juxtaposition of the intelligence assessment is
illogical. They thought they had dramatically curtailed production
of fighter aircraft. They were mistaken.

It's one
reason why the appearance of the formed-up Big Wing on September 15th
was such a shock.

I would've said that the biggest shock was that it that it managed to
be formed in time - that was only because of careless planning by the
Germans, who neglected to make any feints and allowed their intentions
to be clearly determined whilst they were still over France.

You know the real losses were only 56 to 27, don't you?

"Here they come again, the last 20 Spitfires..."

Cheers,

Paul Saccani,
Perth,
Western Australia

"Ray O'Hara" wrote in message
...

The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were basically
equals. the Spit is prettier
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.

During the Battle of Britain the RAF over claimed by about 2 to 1.
If that is vastly exaggerated what does the Luftwaffe over claim of
3 to 1 for fighter kills and overall up to 5 to 1 when you count
bomber claims, rate as? The RAF fighter force over claims over
France in 1941, also up to 5 to 1? The USAAF heavy bomber gunner
over claims were even higher, if 2 to 1 is vastly exaggerated what is
the description for the bomber gunners?

Generally the rule was the fewer the number of aircraft the more
deadly the fight and the more accurate the claims, the larger the
number of aircraft the safer the fight and the less accurate the
claims. Hence the 12 Group Big Wing looked far more impressive
at the time than it was.

The reputation of the Spitfire started early, 1 July to 31 October
1940 the German fighter pilots claimed 1,266 Spitfires and 719
Hurricanes, something approaching the reverse of the 2 Hurricanes
to 1 Spitfire present in Fighter Command.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
. au...
"Ray O'Hara" wrote in message
...

The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were basically
equals. the Spit is prettier
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.

During the Battle of Britain the RAF over claimed by about 2 to 1.
If that is vastly exaggerated what does the Luftwaffe over claim of
3 to 1 for fighter kills and overall up to 5 to 1 when you count
bomber claims, rate as? The RAF fighter force over claims over
France in 1941, also up to 5 to 1? The USAAF heavy bomber gunner
over claims were even higher, if 2 to 1 is vastly exaggerated what is
the description for the bomber gunners?

Generally the rule was the fewer the number of aircraft the more
deadly the fight and the more accurate the claims, the larger the
number of aircraft the safer the fight and the less accurate the
claims. Hence the 12 Group Big Wing looked far more impressive
at the time than it was.

The reputation of the Spitfire started early, 1 July to 31 October
1940 the German fighter pilots claimed 1,266 Spitfires and 719
Hurricanes, something approaching the reverse of the 2 Hurricanes
to 1 Spitfire present in Fighter Command.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.



Bombers would overclaim because several bombers would claim the same kill.
one wonders how much damge B-17s did to each other.
especially the waist gunners.

"Ray O'Hara" wrote in message
...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
. au...
"Ray O'Hara" wrote in message
...

The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were
basically equals. the Spit is prettier
British aerial victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.

During the Battle of Britain the RAF over claimed by about 2 to 1.
If that is vastly exaggerated what does the Luftwaffe over claim of
3 to 1 for fighter kills and overall up to 5 to 1 when you count
bomber claims, rate as? The RAF fighter force over claims over
France in 1941, also up to 5 to 1? The USAAF heavy bomber gunner
over claims were even higher, if 2 to 1 is vastly exaggerated what is
the description for the bomber gunners?

Generally the rule was the fewer the number of aircraft the more
deadly the fight and the more accurate the claims, the larger the
number of aircraft the safer the fight and the less accurate the
claims. Hence the 12 Group Big Wing looked far more impressive
at the time than it was.

The reputation of the Spitfire started early, 1 July to 31 October
1940 the German fighter pilots claimed 1,266 Spitfires and 719
Hurricanes, something approaching the reverse of the 2 Hurricanes
to 1 Spitfire present in Fighter Command.

Bombers would overclaim because several bombers would claim the same kill.
one wonders how much damge B-17s did to each other.
especially the waist gunners.

Since you describe over claiming by 2 to 1 as "vastly exaggerated"
could you please indicate what 3 to 1, 5 to 1 and more than 5 to 1
should be described as.

When I did a basic check of cause of loss of B-17s in the 8th Air
Force something like 3 were listed as lost to other B-17s. How
many USAAF were damaged by fellow bomber's gunners is rather
hard to determine, given the damage done by the German fighters
that caused the bomber gunners to open fire in the first place.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

On Mar 9, 11:21*am, "Ray O'Hara" wrote:
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message

. au...





"Ray O'Hara" wrote in message
...

The 109 was better than the Hurricane and the Spit and 109 were basically
equals. the Spit is prettier
British aerial *victory claims are vastly exagerated in the BoB.

During the Battle of Britain the RAF over claimed by about 2 to 1.
If that is vastly exaggerated what does the Luftwaffe over claim of
3 to 1 for fighter kills and overall up to 5 to 1 when you count
bomber claims, rate as? *The RAF fighter force over claims over
France in 1941, also up to 5 to 1? *The USAAF heavy bomber gunner
over claims were even higher, if 2 to 1 is vastly exaggerated what is
the description for the bomber gunners?

Generally the rule was the fewer the number of aircraft the more
deadly the fight and the more accurate the claims, the larger the
number of aircraft the safer the fight and the less accurate the
claims. *Hence the 12 Group Big Wing looked far more impressive
at the time than it was.

The reputation of the Spitfire started early, 1 July to 31 October
1940 the German fighter pilots claimed 1,266 Spitfires and 719
Hurricanes, something approaching the reverse of the 2 Hurricanes
to 1 Spitfire present in Fighter Command.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Bombers would overclaim because several bombers would claim the same kill..
one wonders how much damge B-17s did to each other.
especially the waist gunners.

One of the UK posters a while back mentioned a Luftwaffe night fighter
pilot who saw two Lancasters shoot each other down one night.