Question about TRSA - KPSP

Not sure what you mean by Stage II? I had stated Stage III which is
vaild........



On May 20, 11:48*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
wrote in message

...



Thanks for all your info. Here is an update, I did call the KPSP
control tower and talked to the manager. *He was very nice and
appolgetic about the controllers attitude. *He took the info about my
tail number and time of incident and he is going to initiate an
investigation about the poor handling. *He stated that a controller
should never talk or act in that way even if you violated a TFR or
FAR. *As for the procedures as Larry stated above that when talking to
the tower next time that I should cancel Stage III right away and then
they will handle my landing. *He said that they take this stuff VERY
seriously and that they really need us GA guys and gals to keep
flying. *I will let you know the outcome. *Thanks...

There is no Stage II to cancel. *Hasn't been for about twenty years now.

On May 20, 8:25 am, Larry Dighera wrote:



On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:39:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote in
:

The other day I was flying to KPSP (Palm Springs, CA, Class D) which
is in a TRSA which I was not participating in. I was about 10 miles
out and called tower to get setup for landing and they told me to
contact approach. I switch to approach and told them I wanted to land
and the controller started freaking out on me saying I should have
called him a long time ago, etc..... I was then sequenced to land and
all was fine.... My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

What was on the KPSP ATIS regarding arrivals?

Presumably the KPSP tower personnel have established VFR arrival
routes, and rely on Approach to hand off arriving aircraft at specific
reporting points. Why don't you give them a call (760–318–3820), and
have a little discussion with ATC about your experience and
expectations, and report back here with your findings?

From the information in the A/FD
http://naco.faa.gov/pdfs/sw_127_10APR2008.pdf it appears that SoCal
approach, not the TRSA, handles approaches, which doesn't make sense
unless the use the same radar.

In my experience with the KPSP TRSA, I have noticed what I would
characterize as unprofessional and inexperienced behavior among the
ATC personnel working it. They want to route you 20 miles out of your
way for no explainable reason; at times they fail to call conflicting
traffic, and generally behave as though they are rookie ATC students.
I recall one night departure from KPSP in particular. The TRSA
controller had me headed directly for 11,485-foot Mount San Gorgonio
in the pitch dark. I was aware that they had done the same thing with
a biz-jet some time in the past, and failed to turn it in time to
avert a CFIT mishap. Time was passing and still I was not vectored
through the Banning Pass. I called and canceled Stage III, and went
on my way.

Several times, while en route from Bermuda Dunes to John Wayne (KSNA),
I would head toward the ridge south of Mt. San Jacinto peak to
over-fly the March Class C to the west. The TRSA controllers seemed
uncomfortable with my route (possibly because of the possibility of a
downdraft east of the ridge), and would try to get me to thread the
often congested Banning Pass. I never approach a mountain ridge at a
right angle, and am always ready to turn away in the event of
encountering a lee downdraft, and if the wind had been significant,
I'd have chosen another route.

I do recall one time the TRSA radar was helpful though. It was night,
and I got a traffic call from ATC of an F-16 approaching from 6
O-clock. The controller suggested a new heading, and I complied just
in time to see two orange disks zoom past.

There was a period in the late '90s when the TRSA radar was out, and
the military provided radar coverage for the TRSA. The
professionalism of the controllers was noticeably improved, IMO.

I don't know what it is with the KPSP TRSA personnel, but I suspect
the FAA uses the TRSA to train controllers for Class C and B areas, so
they're a bit green. Just remain in command of your flight, and use
them as a tool, or tell 'em "negative stage III."

I'm not sure if this is the mishap to which I referred above:

http://members.aol.com/jaydeebee1/crash70s.html
• 1977 •

Date / Time: Thursday, January 6, 1977 / 5:00 p.m.
Operator / Flight No.: Jet Avia charter service / Private Charter
Location: Mt. San Gorgonio, San Bernardino County, Calif.

Details and Probable Cause: Natalie “Dolly” Sinatra, the
82-year-old mother of entertainer Frank Sinatra, was aboard a
chartered private Gates Learjet 24B (N12MK) that departed Palm
Springs Municipal Airport for Las Vegas, Nevada, in adverse
weather conditions.

Instead of making a prescribed turn to the right following takeoff
at 4:55 p.m., the jet continued on its original course and,
approximately five minutes after departure, crashed at 9,700 feet
into the cloud-and-snow-covered slope of the 11,502-foot-high San
Gorgonio Mountain.

Killed in the crash were Mrs. Sinatra; Mrs. Anna Carbone, 67, a
friend Mrs. Sinatra had invited along for the trip; and the
aircraft’s pilot and co-pilot.

The flight crew erred in that they misinterpreted a clearance
issued by the Palm Springs departure control and subsequent air
traffic control instructions.

The wreckage was spotted from the air by searchers on the morning
of January 9. The bodies of the four victims were recovered from
the remote, mountainous crash site on January 10.

The two women were flying to Las Vegas to attend Frank Sinatra’s
opening night performance at Caesars Palace Hotel & Casino.

Fatalities: 4

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=55869&key=0- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Tue, 20 May 2008 13:54:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote in
:

Not sure what you mean by Stage II? I had stated Stage III which is
vaild........


Apparently Mr. McNicoll is correct:



http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...4/aim0401.html
4-1-17. Terminal Radar Services for VFR Aircraft

a. Basic Radar Service:

1. In addition to the use of radar for the control of IFR
aircraft, all commissioned radar facilities provide the following
basic radar services for VFR aircraft:

(a) Safety alerts.

(b) Traffic advisories.

(c) Limited radar vectoring (on a workload permitting basis).

(d) Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established
for this purpose and/or when covered by a Letter of Agreement.

NOTE-
When the stage services were developed, two basic radar services
(traffic advisories and limited vectoring) were identified as "Stage
I." This definition became unnecessary and the term "Stage I" was
eliminated from use. The term "Stage II" has been eliminated in
conjunction with the airspace reclassification, and sequencing
services to locations with local procedures and/or letters of
agreement to provide this service have been included in basic services
to VFR aircraft. These basic services will still be provided by all
terminal radar facilities whether they include ClassB, Class C, Class
D or Class E airspace. "Stage III" services have been replaced with
"Class B" and "TRSA" service where applicable.

2. Vectoring service may be provided when requested by the pilot
or with pilot concurrence when suggested by ATC.

3. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact approach control on
the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, aircraft
call sign, type aircraft, radar beacon code (if transponder equipped),
destination, and request traffic information.

4. Approach control will issue wind and runway, except when the
pilot states "have numbers" or this information is contained in the
ATIS broadcast and the pilot states that the current ATIS information
has been received. Traffic information is provided on a workload
permitting basis. Approach control will specify the time or place at
which the pilot is to contact the tower on local control frequency for
further landing information. Radar service is automatically terminated
and the aircraft need not be advised of termination when an arriving
VFR aircraft receiving radar services to a tower-controlled airport
where basic radar service is provided has landed, or to all other
airports, is instructed to change to tower or advisory frequency. (See
FAA Order JO 7110.65, Air Traffic Control, paragraph 5-1-13, Radar
Service Termination.)

5. Sequencing for VFR aircraft is available at certain terminal
locations (see locations listed in the Airport/Facility Directory).
The purpose of the service is to adjust the flow of arriving VFR and
IFR aircraft into the traffic pattern in a safe and orderly manner and
to provide radar traffic information to departing VFR aircraft. Pilot
participation is urged but is not mandatory. Traffic information is
provided on a workload permitting basis. Standard radar separation
between VFR or between VFR and IFR aircraft is not provided.

(a) Pilots of arriving VFR aircraft should initiate radio contact
on the publicized frequency with approach control when approximately
25 miles from the airport at which sequencing services are being
provided. On initial contact by VFR aircraft, approach control will
assume that sequencing service is requested. After radar contact is
established, the pilot may use pilot navigation to enter the traffic
pattern or, depending on traffic conditions, approach control may
provide the pilot with routings or vectors necessary for proper
sequencing with other participating VFR and IFR traffic en route to
the airport. When a flight is positioned behind a preceding aircraft
and the pilot reports having that aircraft in sight, the pilot will be
instructed to follow the preceding aircraft. THE ATC INSTRUCTION TO
FOLLOW THE PRECEDING AIRCRAFT DOES NOT AUTHORIZE THE PILOT TO COMPLY
WITH ANY ATC CLEARANCE OR INSTRUCTION ISSUED TO THE PRECEDING
AIRCRAFT. If other "nonparticipating" or "local" aircraft are in the
traffic pattern, the tower will issue a landing sequence. If an
arriving aircraft does not want radar service, the pilot should state
"NEGATIVE RADAR SERVICE" or make a similar comment, on initial contact
with approach control.

(b) Pilots of departing VFR aircraft are encouraged to request
radar traffic information by notifying ground control on initial
contact with their request and proposed direction of flight.

EXAMPLE-
Xray ground control, November One Eight Six, Cessna One Seventy
Two, ready to taxi, VFR southbound at 2,500, have information bravo
and request radar traffic information.

NOTE-
Following takeoff, the tower will advise when to contact departure
control.

(c) Pilots of aircraft transiting the area and in radar
contact/communication with approach control will receive traffic
information on a controller workload permitting basis. Pilots of such
aircraft should give their position, altitude, aircraft call sign,
aircraft type, radar beacon code (if transponder equipped),
destination, and/or route of flight.

b. TRSA Service (Radar Sequencing and Separation Service for VFR
Aircraft in a TRSA).

1. This service has been implemented at certain terminal
locations. The service is advertised in the Airport/Facility
Directory. The purpose of this service is to provide separation
between all participating VFR aircraft and all IFR aircraft operating
within the airspace defined as the Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA).
Pilot participation is urged but is not mandatory.

2. If any aircraft does not want the service, the pilot should
state "NEGATIVE TRSA SERVICE" or make a similar comment, on initial
contact with approach control or ground control, as appropriate.

3. TRSAs are depicted on sectional aeronautical charts and listed
in the Airport/Facility Directory.

4. While operating within a TRSA, pilots are provided TRSA service
and separation as prescribed in this paragraph. In the event of a
radar outage, separation and sequencing of VFR aircraft will be
suspended as this service is dependent on radar. The pilot will be
advised that the service is not available and issued wind, runway
information, and the time or place to contact the tower. Traffic
information will be provided on a workload permitting basis.

5. Visual separation is used when prevailing conditions permit and
it will be applied as follows:

(a) When a VFR flight is positioned behind a preceding aircraft
and the pilot reports having that aircraft in sight, the pilot will be
instructed by ATC to follow the preceding aircraft. Radar service will
be continued to the runway. THE ATC INSTRUCTION TO FOLLOW THE
PRECEDING AIRCRAFT DOES NOT AUTHORIZE THE PILOT TO COMPLY WITH ANY ATC
CLEARANCE OR INSTRUCTION ISSUED TO THE PRECEDING AIRCRAFT.

(b) If other "nonparticipating" or "local" aircraft are in the
traffic pattern, the tower will issue a landing sequence.

(c) Departing VFR aircraft may be asked if they can visually
follow a preceding departure out of the TRSA. The pilot will be
instructed to follow the other aircraft provided that the pilot can
maintain visual contact with that aircraft.

6. VFR aircraft will be separated from VFR/IFR aircraft by one of
the following:

(a) 500 feet vertical separation.

(b) Visual separation.

(c) Target resolution (a process to ensure that correlated radar
targets do not touch) when using broadband radar systems.

7. Participating pilots operating VFR in a TRSA:

(a) Must maintain an altitude when assigned by ATC unless the
altitude assignment is to maintain at or below a specified altitude.
ATC may assign altitudes for separation that do not conform to 14CFR
Section91.159. When the altitude assignment is no longer needed for
separation or when leaving the TRSA, the instruction will be
broadcast, "RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES." Pilots must then return
to an altitude that conforms to 14 CFR Section 91.159 as soon as
practicable.

(b) When not assigned an altitude, the pilot should coordinate
with ATC prior to any altitude change.

8. Within the TRSA, traffic information on observed but
unidentified targets will, to the extent possible, be provided to all
IFR and participating VFR aircraft. The pilot will be vectored upon
request to avoid the observed traffic, provided the aircraft to be
vectored is within the airspace under the jurisdiction of the
controller.

9. Departing aircraft should inform ATC of their intended
destination and/or route of flight and proposed cruising altitude.

10. ATC will normally advise participating VFR aircraft when
leaving the geographical limits of the TRSA. Radar service is not
automatically terminated with this advisory unless specifically stated
by the controller.






http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...3/aim0305.html

3-5-6. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA)

a. Background. TRSAs were originally established as part of the
Terminal Radar Program at selected airports. TRSAs were never
controlled airspace from a regulatory standpoint because the
establishment of TRSAs was never subject to the rulemaking process;
consequently, TRSAs are not contained in 14 CFR Part71 nor are there
any TRSA operating rules in 14CFR Part 91. Part of the Airport Radar
Service Area (ARSA) program was to eventually replace all TRSAs.
However, the ARSA requirements became relatively stringent and it was
subsequently decided that TRSAs would have to meet ARSA criteria
before they would be converted. TRSAs do not fit into any of the U.S.
airspace classes; therefore, they will continue to be non-Part71
airspace areas where participating pilots can receive additional radar
services which have been redefined as TRSA Service.

b. TRSAs. The primary airport(s) within the TRSA become(s) Class D
airspace. The remaining portion of the TRSA overlies other controlled
airspace which is normally Class E airspace beginning at 700 or 1,200
feet and established to transition to/from the en route/terminal
environment.

c. Participation. Pilots operating under VFR are encouraged to
contact the radar approach control and avail themselves of the TRSA
Services. However, participation is voluntary on the part of the
pilot. See Chapter 4, Air Traffic Control, for details and procedures.

d. Charts. TRSAs are depicted on VFR sectional and terminal area
charts with a solid black line and altitudes for each segment. The
Class D portion is charted with a blue segmented line.






http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...h11/s1101.html


U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
ORDER
JO 7210.3V
Effective Date:
February 14, 2008


Subject: Facility Operation and Administration

Chapter 11. National Programs
Section 1. Terminal VFR Radar Services

11-1-1. PROGRAM INTENT

Basic Radar Service, TRSA Service, Class B and Class C services
are the four types of Radar Services designed to enhance safety by
providing air traffic services to VFR aircraft. The services were
designed to provide the maximum level of radar services possible with
existing equipment. Additional resources (displays, communications,
telco, space, etc.) must be justified by requirements other than the
volume of radar service provided to VFR aircraft. Pilots should be
encouraged to participate by all available methods. This is best
accomplished through effective procedures and a clear understanding of
the Terminal VFR Radar Services available.

REFERENCE-
Pilot/Controller Glossary Term- Terminal VFR Radar Services.
FAAOJO 7110.65, Chapter 7, Section 6, Basic Radar Service to VFR
Aircraft- Terminal.

11-1-2. IMPLEMENTATION

a. Facilities unable to meet the following requirements shall
submit justification to the respective Terminal Operations Area
Office:

1. Newly commissioned terminal radar facilities shall implement
basic radar services to VFR aircraft, as prescribed in FAAO JO
7110.65, Air Traffic Control, para 7-6-1, Application, within 30 to 60
days after full IFR service is available. All radar facilities shall
provide basic radar service at primary airports and, where
operationally feasible, at satellite airports with a control tower.

2. TRSA Service: In addition to basic radar service, provide
separation between all participating aircraft operating in an
established TRSA. If a need exists, facilities may develop coded VFR
departure routes for TRSA service. When such routes are established,
the following provisions apply:

(a) Prior to implementing coded VFR departure routes, the facility
shall coordinate with local user groups.

(b) A letter to airmen shall be issued advising pilots of the
procedure.

(c) These routes shall only be issued to local users familiar with
the procedure.

(d) Detailed departure instructions shall be furnished when
requested by the pilot.

3. Facility air traffic managers shall address in writing, as a
minimum, the following pertinent factors when submitting for service
area office approval, either a recommendation for revision or
withdrawal of an existing TRSA.

(a) Safety record/NMAC analysis.

(b) Airspace and operational efficiency.

(c) Unique geographical features.

(d) Hourly air carrier traffic density.

(e) User input. (User meetings, while highly desirable, are not
required for withdrawals.)

b. Revisions to TRSAs shall be submitted to System Operations
Airspace and Aeronautical Information Management, NFDC, at least 9
weeks prior to one of the appropriate publication dates; i.e.,
Sectional Charts, Notice to Airmen, or the Airport/Facility Directory.
The following are considered sufficient justification to warrant
revision:

1. Changes in configuration, frequencies, or primary airport
status (name, elevation, closed, abandoned, etc.).

2. Additions or deletions to the VFR checkpoints/NAVAIDs.

3. Typographical errors.

c. Advertising Basic Radar Services:

1. A sufficient number of user group meetings shall be held to
publicize implementation of basic radar services to as many local
pilots as practicable.

2. Disseminate a letter to airmen explaining the program and
including a drawing of the basic radar service area. The drawing
should be on a cutout from the appropriate sectional chart and should
show the following:

(a) Lateral and vertical dimensions.

(b) Frequency for each sector.

(c) Initial VFR checkpoints indicated by flags.

3. The facility air traffic manager shall seek the cooperation of
the FSDO in informing aviation interests about their responsibilities
while operating in a basic radar service environment. Special emphasis
should be placed on such points as:

(a) Pilot participation is urged, but it is not mandatory.

(b) Pilots should be aware that aircraft sequencing and traffic
advisories are primarily based on aircraft maintaining assigned
headings and altitudes.

(c) If a pilot cannot abide with an ATC instruction or clearance,
he/she should notify ATC immediately.

4. Follow-up meetings ("HOW GOES IT" type) shall be conducted.

11-1-3. TRSA

a. TRSAs are not officially designated by airspace action and were
established solely to define an area within which a separation service
will be provided. Therefore, at all TRSA locations it is intended that
facilities shall provide the full extent of TRSA services throughout
the entire advertised TRSA area. Although the TRSA area extends
downward to the surface within the surface area of Class D airspace at
the primary airport, a base should be established outside this surface
area of Class D airspace to permit free movement of nonparticipating
aircraft. The base of the TRSA shall not be below the base of an
associated Class E airspace.

b. The size and shape (laterally/vertically) of the TRSA will vary
depending upon operational requirements. However, each TRSA shall
reflect the most efficient and reasonable configuration to contain
large turbine-powered aircraft while achieving a higher level of
overall safety.

NOTE-
There is no requirement for the TRSA facility to retain
operational jurisdiction of the airspace in its entirety if another
facility can more effectively manage a particular portion of the
airspace. The requirement is that the system provides the required
service.

c. All IFR procedures used by large turbine-powered aircraft
arriving and departing designated airports shall be fully contained in
the TRSA. Each TRSA should be configured to ensure the most efficient
use of airspace.

d. Arriving and departing large turbine-powered aircraft should
enter/exit the TRSA through the ceiling. However, arriving aircraft at
altitudes below the ceiling are not required to climb to achieve this
objective, nor are departing aircraft filed at lower altitudes.

wrote:
My question is that since TRSA is voluntary why did
the tower switch me to Approach. I flyout out of another Class D
airport and everything is handled with the tower. I thought I was
doint things correctly... Thanks for your help.

It's been my experience with TRSAs that they like to use Approach to
sequence the arrivals. Just about every time I've directly contacted a tower
within a TRSA, I've been asked to talk to Approach first (which is fine by me)
Of course, no one has ever been rude about it, or implied that I'd done
anything wrong.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

wrote in message
...

Not sure what you mean by Stage II? I had stated Stage III which is
vaild........


I meant to say there is no Stage III to cancel, and that is a fact.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:07:15 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


wrote in message
...

Not sure what you mean by Stage II? I had stated Stage III which is
vaild........


I meant to say there is no Stage III to cancel, and that is a fact.



While you may indeed be correct, I was instructed to use the "negative
stage III" phraseology back in '96 or so, so it may still be in use
regardless if it is accurate any longer or not.

It would have been significantly more helpful if you had provided the
correct/current phraseology.

What I find curious about TRSAs is the TRSA controller's
responsibility to separate ONLY participating aircraft. Presumably
participating aircraft are obliged to follow the controller's
instructions, yet they are responsible for their own separation from
non-participating aircraft, and the controller is only charged with
providing non-participatory aircraft traffic advisories on a workload
permitting basis.

I suppose a participating aircraft that deviates from his assigned
heading/altitude for traffic avoidance is invoking his emergency
authority, and must advise ATC of that.

At any rate, the only airspace in which VFR flights can be assured of
ATC separation from ALL other flights is apparently Classes B.

The controller I spoke to today specifically said "cancel stage III"
maybe
he is old school.......



On May 20, 3:35*pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:07:15 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:



wrote in message
...

Not sure what you mean by Stage II? *I had stated Stage III which is
vaild........

I meant to say there is no Stage III to cancel, and that is a fact.

While you may indeed be correct, I was instructed to use the "negative
stage III" phraseology back in '96 or so, so it may still be in use
regardless if it is accurate any longer or not.

It would have been significantly more helpful if you had provided the
correct/current phraseology.

What I find curious about TRSAs is the TRSA controller's
responsibility to separate ONLY participating aircraft. *Presumably
participating aircraft are obliged to follow the controller's
instructions, yet they are responsible for their own separation from
non-participating aircraft, and the controller is only charged with
providing non-participatory aircraft traffic advisories on a workload
permitting basis. *

I suppose a participating aircraft that deviates from his assigned
heading/altitude for traffic avoidance is invoking his emergency
authority, and must advise ATC of that. *

At any rate, the only airspace in which VFR flights can be assured of
ATC separation from ALL other flights is apparently Classes B.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

While you may indeed be correct, I was instructed to use the "negative
stage III" phraseology back in '96 or so, so it may still be in use
regardless if it is accurate any longer or not.


It was incorrect then as well. What other obsolete terminology do you
suppose your instructor provided?



It would have been significantly more helpful if you had provided the
correct/current phraseology.


It would have been significantly more helpful if the PSP ATCT Air Traffic
Manager was aware of correct/current phraseology and procedures and made
sure they were followed at his facility.

wrote in message
...

The controller I spoke to today specifically said "cancel stage III" maybe
he is old school.......


Did you happen to ask him how you should cancel a voluntary service you
hadn't requested and weren't receiving?

The proper phraseology, back when the Stage services existed, was "negative
Stage II".

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...

The controller I spoke to today specifically said "cancel stage III"
maybe
he is old school.......


Did you happen to ask him how you should cancel a voluntary service you
hadn't requested and weren't receiving?

The proper phraseology, back when the Stage services existed, was
"negative Stage II".

My I key must be sticky, that should be "negative Stage III".

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message

What other obsolete terminology do you suppose your instructor provided?

"ATC is there to help you"