Midair near Minden

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:


But, I fly with the
electrical system I have, not the one I might want, so the transponder
usually goes off in the boonies...

Which would apparently put you in violation of 91.215(c)
(requires transponder on) when your transponder is OFF if it
meets the requirements of 91.413 and in violation of
91.413(a) when your transponder is ON if it does not meet
those requirements. No good deed goes unpunished.

So far, I believe it has gone unpunished: does anyone know of a glider
pilot cited for turning off his transponder? I couldn't find anyone that
knew of that when I wrote my article for Soaring (Feb 2002), and I
haven't heard of anyone since then, either.

FAA officials have told SSA officials, unofficially of course, that they
are happy to have glider pilots put transponders in their gliders, even
if they don't have them on all the time. I don't think we should be
discouraging transponder use, even unintentionally, by bringing up the
"always on" requirement. The FAA understands that requirement makes
sense for airplanes but not gliders, and that someone willing to spend
the money and effort to install safety equipment that is not required of
them should be commended (at least off the record), not scolded.

Todd, I know you may not have intended it that way, but some people do
take it that way, and that is one of the reasons/excuses I hear for not
installing a transponder.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:57:47 +0000, Mike Schumann wrote:

Why in the world would you leave a transponder off if you have the luxury of
having one????

Transponder installations in gliders are not as reliable as we would like
them to be. These are some of the reasons I know of for transponders not
being operational in VFR airspace that I have experienced by myself or by
other pilots I know personally:

- Battery failed unexpectedly and no backup installed.

- Battery failed unexpectedly and backup battery also failed unexpectedly.

- Transponder display faulty and spares unavailable (a common problem
with old Terra's).

- Loose connection between the altitude encoder and transponder resulted
in wild altitudes indications and ATC getting upset and requesting the
pilot to switch off the transponder. ATC also not happy with pilot
squawking mode A.

- Antenna located a little too close to pilot for comfort and pilot elects
to leave transponder switched off to protect the family jewels from
radiation when not in controlled airspace.

- Transponder operating but transmissions shielded by poorly
located antenna.

- Antenna damaged by earlier ground handling mishap and transponder
switched off.

- Transponder turned on but the pilot is unaware that it is non-functional
because it has not been ground checked for a long time and the glider has
not been in controlled airspace recently and hence the pilot has not had
confirmation from ATC that they can see him.

- Transponder is turned off because the pilot suspects it is not
working but has not had a chance to get it checked either on the ground,
or by talking to ATC.

- Transponder removed for repairs and sent to repair facility and it takes
many weeks to get it back.


And a couple of other reasons reported on RAS:

- Glider pilots requested to switch off transponders in certain
areas after false TCAS warnings triggered at nearby airports.

- Transponder set to squawk code that is filtered on ATC radar.

(Please note, I don't fly in the USA, none of the above occurred in the
USA so please don't quote me USA regulations.)

From my experience, it is feasible to fit transponders in a few privately
owned gliders for use during occasional flights in controlled airspace (or
other airspace with active communication with ATC).

However, it is not practical to equip an entire fleet of gliders with
transponders, instruct the pilots to squawk "blind" and expect this to
allow IFR traffic to be routed safely through the same airspace. This is a
recipe for disaster.


Ian

16 seconds is a long time to make an avoidance manuver.


raulb wrote:
I am sure that Chip Gardner is thinking that it is deja vu all over
again. He had a Navy jet (A-4? A-6?) eat 3 feet of his wingtip near
Mt. Palomar about 20 years ago.

Gardner managed to fy back and land at the gliderport at Hemet and the
jet limped back to Miramar NAS with a fiberglass wingtip lodged in one
of his engines.

I remember at the time that Chip said that at the speeds they fly, we
go from being a speck on the windshield to a full target in less than
16 seconds.

But quite a short time to make one turn in a thermal.


Author: Jodom
Date/Time: 12:10 31 August 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
16 seconds is a long time to make an avoidance manuver.


raulb wrote:
I remember at the time that Chip said that at the speeds they fly, we
go from being a speck on the windshield to a full target in less than
16 seconds.


------------------------------------------------------------

Euro experience from hang glide list
Bizjet collides with glider in Nevada
Posted by: "Bart Doets" bart.doets@
Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:31 am (PST)
----- Original Message -----
From: "xcnick4" xcnick4@

The fear is that gliding will be considered unsafe without Mode S
transponders and they will make us all buy these gismos. Great
Britain is facing this realty right now. Who is next? Hang gliders?
Paragliders? Geese?

Dunno how this is going in the USA, but in Europe it has already been
decided that HGs and PGs (and ULs etc.) must have mode S transponders.
The
only thing that has postponed the actual effectuation of the decision
is,
that there were no transponders on the market that would do the job
working
on battery power.
Seems right now there are transponders in a range from 1350 to 2000
Euros
($1627-2410) that are supposed to work 4-5 hours. (Remember how the
first
useable GPS's would not work by far as long as they were supposed to?)
I am a bit worried about the seemingly waiting mode that the European
HG
orgs are in. As far as I know only the British org has sort of called
up its
members, but it might be far too late anyway - the decision is cast
years
ago. The only thing that really might help us out is the marketing of a
mode
S transponder at a price of just a couple of hundred euros max, like
the
first GPS's that really hit big (Garmin 38).

A couple of weeks ago, a colleague of mine took me on a flight in a
motorglider, from Hilversum airfield in the centre of Holland.
Hilversum is
close to the edge of Schiphol(Amsterdam airport) CTR.
My colleague told me: "This plane is equipped with a transponder, but
following a request from Schiphol tower we keep it switched off most of
the
time. Seems all those tiny bleeps and bloops along the edge of their
CTR are
unnecessarily complicating their work."

I'm really worried that the transponder obligation will effectively
kill all
but the most expensive non-motorized flying. To a glass glider it may
only
be a small raise in cost, but for many hanggliders it will be out of
proportion. And... would it really help?

Bart Doets
Holland

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Todd, I know you may not have intended it that way, but some people do
take it that way, and that is one of the reasons/excuses I hear for not
installing a transponder.

I certainly did not intend it as a discouragement for
installation of transponders, but it's a concern I've heard
expressed too. I'd like to see the FAA make it legal for
the transponder to be turned off in gliders to remove this
excuse/concern. I consider anyone who buys a transponder
and installs it, but turns it off when needed to save
batteries, to be someone who is concerned about improving
safety. That's why I called it a "good deed" but having a
midair with it off is a scary possibility given the current
FARs.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Doug Haluza wrote:
snoop wrote:
snip
The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying). You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed (and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working (try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes. So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Doug:

Clearly my article in the July issue of SOARING on transponders fell
shy of the mark I had hoped to hit as far as educating glider pilots
regarding transponders.
There are four symbols generated by ATC computers for transponder
equipped aircraft. One: transponder, no encoder, non discrete, (like
the basic VFR squwak of 1200.) Two: transponder and encoder, non
discrete - again, like the basic VFR squwak of 1200. Three:
transponder, no encoder, (dam few of these out there any more),
discrete as in talking to ATC. and Four: transponder and encoder,
discrete. That is talking to or about to talk to ATC.
Each controller is required by virtue of the ATC handbook, (7110.65 and
the management handbook 7110.3), to display ALL transponder equipped
aircraft. What the controller does have the option to do is adjust the
filter limits at his scope to exclude the encoded altitude of aircraft
which are not in his assigned airspace.
Had the transponder been turned on by the pilot involved in the
mid-air, the jet would have seen the glider on it's TCAS, and ATC
would have been issuing the glider as traffic to the jet. In the Reno
area, most glider pilots are squawking an non discrete code which
indicates to ATC that they are a glider.

jodom wrote:
16 seconds is a long time to make an avoidance manuver.


Effective clearing is a lot harder than it looks.

You might even be able to do a complete loop in 16 seconds in your
aircraft, but that doesn't mean you can find the traffic in 16 sec.,
especially if there is more than one target to deal with, let alone
avoid it safely.

Sixteen seconds is not a long time to scan the inner surface of a globe
whose diameter is measured in miles and from which threats are emerging
at closing speeds of from 200 to 500 kts below 10,000' msl. Above that
level you can raise potential closing speeds to nearly 600 kts, and
still be below Class A.

By the way, with a closing speed of only 300 kts, you have just 12
seconds to close from a mile out. The inner surface of a two-mile
diameter globe cannot be fully scanned in less than 12 seconds, leaving
you less than zero time to react and to maneuver to avoid.

Think of how many aircraft you have seen and subsequently you took some
evasive action (e.g., ten)-- now think of how many of those took no
action to evade you (e.g., seven), presumably because they did not see
you. In this example 70% of the other pilots were unaware of potential
midair collisions. How does that apply to you? Could we assume that you
were also unaware of 70% of potential traffic conflicts? No, because you
are, of course, twice as effective as the average pilot. Therefore you
only missed slightly more than one third of those potentially fatal
conflicts.

To what do we attribute your continued survival? The big-sky concept
works, but not forever. Is today's flight your last? Could be, unless
all of us get serious about the BIG PICTURE of traffic awareness and
avoidance.


Jack

Why would you spend $2K on a transponder, and not another $50 on a dedicated
battery so you can run it for the duration of your maximum flight?

Mike Schumann

"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
Eric Greenwell wrote:

Todd, I know you may not have intended it that way, but some people do
take it that way, and that is one of the reasons/excuses I hear for not
installing a transponder.

I certainly did not intend it as a discouragement for
installation of transponders, but it's a concern I've heard
expressed too. I'd like to see the FAA make it legal for
the transponder to be turned off in gliders to remove this
excuse/concern. I consider anyone who buys a transponder
and installs it, but turns it off when needed to save
batteries, to be someone who is concerned about improving
safety. That's why I called it a "good deed" but having a
midair with it off is a scary possibility given the current
FARs.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Mike Schumann wrote:
Why would you spend $2K on a transponder, and not another $50 on a dedicated
battery so you can run it for the duration of your maximum flight?

Because, there may be no place to put it. In my case, I tried for
several weeks to find two smaller batteries (preferred) or a single
larger one that would fit in an available space, without eliminating
much of the remaining luggage space, or resorting to a Sawzall. In the
end, geometry won...

There's a huge variety of gell cell battery configurations. You couldn't
find anything that you could fit into your glider? Most of the gliders I
have seen have tons of air around the battery box(es).

Mike Schumann

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Mike Schumann wrote:
Why would you spend $2K on a transponder, and not another $50 on a
dedicated battery so you can run it for the duration of your maximum
flight?

Because, there may be no place to put it. In my case, I tried for several
weeks to find two smaller batteries (preferred) or a single larger one
that would fit in an available space, without eliminating much of the
remaining luggage space, or resorting to a Sawzall. In the end, geometry
won...