Newbie seeking glider purchase advice

I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider. I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and having
fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying about my
local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's guide (or any,
for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well, with no luck. And I'm
surprised by the variety of manufacturers and models. I've gleaned enough to
suspect that my final choice will be something along the lines of a PW-5,
L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about the 304-CZ? And why are there no American
glider manufacturers to speak of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with too
much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe

Ted Wagner wrote:
I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying
about my local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's
guide (or any, for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well,
with no luck. And I'm surprised by the variety of manufacturers and
models.

The sweet spot in the price/performance/age equation is the second
generation fiberglass standard class (15 meter span, no flaps) gliders,
specifically the ASW-19, Pegase, LS-4, DG-101/300, Jantar Std 2/3. Most
were manufactured in the late 70s to mid 80s, are easy for a low time
pilot to fly, have good enough performance to keep you busy with badges
and sports class (handicapped) racing for many years. Plenty of decent
ones can be had in the $20K to $30K price range. Avoid those with poor
finishes, a refinish job can cost as much as you'll pay for the glider
($15K or so). Do have someone with expertise in glass gliders inspect
before purchase.

I've gleaned enough to suspect that my final choice will be something
along the lines of a PW-5, L-33 solo, or AC-4.

Nothing wrong with any of these, but they do have significantly less
performance than more traditional designs, and it can be frustrating if
you want to fly cross-country along with others in higher performance
ships. In Arizona, you won't have much trouble going cross-country in
just about anything that can fly.

But what about the 304-CZ?

Nice glider, but they are newer and will cost a lot more. It might make
sense if you have a partner or two. A flapped ship is also a bit more
complicated to fly, most low time pilots will find it easier to start
with a glider without flaps.

And why are there no American glider manufacturers to speak of?
(I know, too many trial lawyers with too much free time.)

The lawyers are the least of the problems.

Marc

Ted Wagner wrote:

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe

www.sailplanedirectory.com

www.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/compare.htm

www.wingsandwheels.com/want_ads.htm

Really though, different people can come up with VERY
different conclusions.

There are tons of differences. If you are retired with
lots of extra time on your hands, 6'2", 210#, have a
SUV for towing and a big space for a trailer, and you
fly somewhere with very strong thermals or wave, noplace
to hangar or tie down, and you want to spend hours in
a sturdy $20k+ sailplane, then you'll make one choice.

If you're 5'4", 150#, have a Mazda Protege with a tow hitch,
fly in a very open, flat area, have a tiny hangar that a
15m won't fit in, fly less than 50 hours a year, and
have a helpful tow-pilot that you prefer not to offend
by asking him to assemble a 650# glider, you'll make another
choice.

For me, renting for a little while was great, then
getting into a 1/7th partnership/syndicate was the
best way to get just enough availability and fairly
low monthly cost. Personally, I'm in three partnerships
(boat, airplane, glider) and am MUCH happier than
owning anything outright. There's no way I could afford
or use these things fully otherwise.

I found the assembly/disassembly choice to be important
(are you gonna assemble for every flight? Do you have
a hangar? Do you have people to help? Do you have
wingstands/a great trailer?). I also really like
very light ground handling.

I chose a PW-5 over a pegasus and a pik-20. Part of it
was cost and opportunity, part was my low skill level,
but part was really the ease of assembly and ground
handling. The 1-26, russia, and PW-5 are easy to
move about and handle with one person, and clear
runway lights and taxiways very well with the short
wings. I've towed out of landouts without a wingrunner
where the 5-10 feet of wingspan made a difference.

But the PW-5 and Russia performance don't seem to compare
to a grob 102 or pegasus or pik. I don't know if the
AC-4c (Russia retract) is better enough to consider,
but I'd look at the one for $16k on wings and wheels
if I were in the market. Two russia owners at my
gliderport realize the sturdiness and construction
quality are a little lower for these aircraft, reflected
in the price.

I'd say the number one thing is to see if you actually
fit in the glider (for a few hours). Then work out
the assembly/disassembly and trailer or tie down.
Then push it around for about a mile.
Then figure out the initial and continuing expense.
Then compare insurance rates, including for retract.

And then, since you will have selected a 1-26, go back
and decide what you're willing to sacrifice in those
areas for a flatter polar (a glider that will fly
faster with relatively little sink).

Your list will probably look like...

1-26
Russia
PW-5
..
grob 102
..
pegasus
pik
LS-4

It's always a balance between what you want and
what you're willing to do to make it happen...

Ted Wagner wrote:
I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying
about my local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's
guide (or any, for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well,
with no luck. And I'm surprised by the variety of manufacturers and
models.

You can also go to

www.google.com

and type in "johnson flight test L-33"
or whatever sailplane you want instead of the L-33.
This gives you .pdf files of the back issue soaring
articles. He focusses heavily on flight, of course,
so that doesn't do much for assembly/price/wing weight,
etc. Some great stuff there about how to "tweak"
aerodynamic improvements of particular sailplanes too.

Consider resale value.

Basically, IMHO, if you buy one of the Big Few (meaning German)
manufacturers, you are almost guaranteed getting all of your money back when
you resell it years from now.

Tom Knauff


You also get the best engineering and customer support.
"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:bsjGb.13545$7D3.12440@fed1read02...
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider. I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and having
fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying about
my
local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's guide (or
any,
for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well, with no luck. And
I'm
surprised by the variety of manufacturers and models. I've gleaned enough
to
suspect that my final choice will be something along the lines of a PW-5,
L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about the 304-CZ? And why are there no
American
glider manufacturers to speak of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with too
much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all
the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message news:bsjGb.13545$7D3.12440@fed1read02...
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider. I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and having
fun, in that order.


Ted, welcome to the sport!

Are you flying at Turf or Estrella?

Please take a moment to check out the Arizona Soaring Association (at
ASA-soaring.org), we are an active group that does a lot of XC and
racing out of primarily Turf but also Estrella and El-Tiro. We have a
Grob 102 (fully equipped for XC and racing) based at Turf, rents for
$25/hour (or $500/year for all you can fly), and membership is only
$40/year (if you have already joined, sorry, didn't see your name on
our roster).

We fly a wide variety of gliders, from PW-5s on up to the latest
racing glass, so if you want to get together over a brew or two and
discuss relative merits of what gliders are available, and suitable
for our conditions, please feel free to drop me a line at
. A bunch of us can usually be found hanging out at
Turf on Saturday at our Clubhouse.

We also have a bunch of ex-jumpers (and some current ones) to compare
war-stories with...

Kirk Stant
LS6-b "66"
Over on the West side of the Valley

don't rule out the SGS 1-26 (American Made) or a SGS 1-34..

There is a large group of 1-26 pilots that compete in "single class"
competitions.. its going cross country where the pilot makes the
difference.. not the $$ in the glass.

The L-33 is a great beginning cross country ship.. and it's metal.. can be
left out in the weather without the UV damage to glass.. The PW-5, though
funny looking.. is the new "World Class Glider", a replacement to the 1-26
single class competitions. The PW-5 would be the way to go if you are
considering world class.

And there are great older glass birds in the 20-35K range.
Best bet would be to get your rating.. then talk to owners and fly a few
different makes/models.. and then make you your own mind.

Welcome to the club..
BT

"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:bsjGb.13545$7D3.12440@fed1read02...
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider. I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and having
fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying about
my
local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's guide (or
any,
for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well, with no luck. And
I'm
surprised by the variety of manufacturers and models. I've gleaned enough
to
suspect that my final choice will be something along the lines of a PW-5,
L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about the 304-CZ? And why are there no
American
glider manufacturers to speak of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with too
much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all
the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe

The closest thing to the buying guide you are looking for, is the SSA
sailplane directory, which last came out in 1997. You should be able
to dig up a copy from among the local glider pilot population. It's
out of date by six or seven years but things haven't changed much in
that time.

Given your stated likely choices, I hope you are not considering
buying new. At least for the PW-5, AC-4 or L33 buying new would be a
big mistake.

During the 90's, there was a bit of a bubble in the market for "World
Class" (PW-5) gliders, and "World Class also-rans" (AC-4 and L33).
Alot of guys bought these ships new, and ended up spending close to
$30K for the things when trailer, instruments and extras were
included. Since then, the "World Class" movement has basically
collapsed and these gliders are worth about half that on the used
market.

I suppose if you pick up a used PW-5 or AC-4 rig for mid to low teens,
it would be an okay choice as you wouldn't lose too much when you
outgrow it within a season and want to upgrade.

If you have your heart set on buying new, the 304CZ would be a fair
choice as it has reasonable performance and you would not outgrow it
for some time. Though recent declines in the dollar probably make
them less attractive compared to used ships.

Another thing to consider is who are the guys you'll be flying with
and what do they fly? If all the active pilots at your field are
flying 15m ships, and you are the lone guy with a PW-5, you are not
going to be happy for long. The 40-ish to 1 performance of second
generation or later 15m gliders seems to be a magic number for cross
country flying in many parts of the US.




"Ted Wagner" wrote in message news:bsjGb.13545$7D3.12440@fed1read02...
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider. I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and having
fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying about my
local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's guide (or any,
for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well, with no luck. And I'm
surprised by the variety of manufacturers and models. I've gleaned enough to
suspect that my final choice will be something along the lines of a PW-5,
L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about the 304-CZ? And why are there no American
glider manufacturers to speak of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with too
much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe

Suggest you read Derek Piggott's book. Not only is it an invaluable
source of knowledge, one of the appendices lists most gliders, their
strengths, weaknesses and general characteristics. For example, of the
Slingsby Sport Vega he notes that it has a large cockpit, good handling,
trailing edge airbrakes and fixed u/c. Of each of the different types,
most of which he has actually flown himself, he gives his impression of
whether it is suitable for beginners, prone to breaking, good or bad on
a winch launch etc. Difficult to praise too highly.

You didn't mention how much experience you have. If you are newly solo,
you might want to avoid extra complications such as flaps and
retractable u/c. From a purely personal point of view, and I acknowledge
that many might disagree, I would confine my search to gliders which are
auto connect. They are so much safer , (and easier), to rig. There are
too many horror stories of hotelier connection coming undone, or not
being secured properly in the first place. Another factor to consider
is your own physical strength. Some gliders require large numbers of
"friends" and excellent muscle tone to put together.

You might consider a Sport Vega. It is light and easy to rig; has good
handling and, with trailing edge airbrakes, can be landed on the
proverbial postage stamp. The Astir is heavier, has conventional
airbrakes but is connected with the dreaded hoteliers. Also, it has a
cast aluminium "A" frame which is liable to cracking making heavy
landings very expensive. The Cirrus handles well, but not only do you
have the dreaded hoteliers to contend with, some of them have to be
connected by feel - you can't see them properly to check that the thing
is properly connected.

In the end you will have to make up your own mind from all the advice
you receive. Just be aware of the various issues, decide which are
important to you and then take an "expert" with you to check your
purchase before you part with any money.

Good luck and have fun.

Happy Christmas

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Glider Pilot Network ]
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 5:05 PM
To: Steve Hopkins
Subject: [r.a.s] Newbie seeking glider purchase advice


------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Newbie seeking glider purchase advice
Author: Ted Wagner
Date/Time: 17:00 24 December 2003
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider.
I'm interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and
having fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying
about my local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's
guide (or any, for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well,
with no luck. And I'm surprised by the variety of manufacturers and
models. I've gleaned enough to suspect that my final choice will be
something along the lines of a PW-5, L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about
the 304-CZ? And why are there no American glider manufacturers to speak
of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with too much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all
the options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some
good Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe



------------------------------------------------------------

you can still get it on CD.. but it's not as easy to browse..

BT

"Liam Finley" wrote in message
om...
The closest thing to the buying guide you are looking for, is the SSA
sailplane directory, which last came out in 1997. You should be able
to dig up a copy from among the local glider pilot population. It's
out of date by six or seven years but things haven't changed much in
that time.

Given your stated likely choices, I hope you are not considering
buying new. At least for the PW-5, AC-4 or L33 buying new would be a
big mistake.

During the 90's, there was a bit of a bubble in the market for "World
Class" (PW-5) gliders, and "World Class also-rans" (AC-4 and L33).
Alot of guys bought these ships new, and ended up spending close to
$30K for the things when trailer, instruments and extras were
included. Since then, the "World Class" movement has basically
collapsed and these gliders are worth about half that on the used
market.

I suppose if you pick up a used PW-5 or AC-4 rig for mid to low teens,
it would be an okay choice as you wouldn't lose too much when you
outgrow it within a season and want to upgrade.

If you have your heart set on buying new, the 304CZ would be a fair
choice as it has reasonable performance and you would not outgrow it
for some time. Though recent declines in the dollar probably make
them less attractive compared to used ships.

Another thing to consider is who are the guys you'll be flying with
and what do they fly? If all the active pilots at your field are
flying 15m ships, and you are the lone guy with a PW-5, you are not
going to be happy for long. The 40-ish to 1 performance of second
generation or later 15m gliders seems to be a magic number for cross
country flying in many parts of the US.




"Ted Wagner" wrote in message
news:bsjGb.13545$7D3.12440@fed1read02...
I'm a new glider pilot, having just switched my FAI air sport of choice
after 23 years of leaping out of airplanes.

By this summer it is almost certain I'll be purchasing my own glider.
I'm
interested in having fun, cross-country (eventually competing), and
having
fun, in that order.

I've read about a dozen back issues of the Soaring magazines laying
about my
local club, but I have yet to come across a layman's buyer's guide (or
any,
for that matter). I've done some 'Net surfing as well, with no luck. And
I'm
surprised by the variety of manufacturers and models. I've gleaned
enough to
suspect that my final choice will be something along the lines of a
PW-5,
L-33 solo, or AC-4. But what about the 304-CZ? And why are there no
American
glider manufacturers to speak of? (I know, too many trial lawyers with
too
much free time.)

If anyone has recently been through this process of finding out what all
the
options are in a nicely distilled format, or where I might find some
good
Internet resource on the subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

-Ted in Tempe