towing a sailplane trailer / vehicle

John,

As someone said, "Power corrupts. Absolute power is a pretty neat
thing." Or something like that. So a bigger engine would be alright
by me! :-)

Not sure how I could shift enough of the contents in the trailer to
get the tongue weight down to the featherweights you mention. It
would be a job of shifting the axle. Yea, with money, anything is
possible. I have seen a trailer, maybe it was an Anshau Komet, that
had several available mounting points for the axle, which in theory
should make shifting the axle around a bit less complicated. My Swan
has no such arrangement and any axle shifting would be all of my
problem.

While the V-6 Honda Accord was a great car, but a poor tow car for my
particular trailer, it was probably time to trade it in anyway. It
had almost 210,000 miles on it. Not nearly as many as my old '88
Accord with 396,000 miles on it when an errant driver going the
opposite direction decided to turn in front of me. That idiot's move
totalled out the old blue Honda. And I'm still ****ed seven years
after the wreck!

Oh, and not only is the Subaru rated to tow the trailer, it has all
wheel drive, in case I need help getting out of a cow pasture, and a
bit more ground clearance than the Accord, again better suited for
driving over rather than through the cow pies.


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


On Oct 30, 11:06*am, John Smith wrote:
rlovinggood wrote:
lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. *Turns out that 180 lb tongue
weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of

This is ridiculous. There's no reason to have a tongue weight of more
than about 30 to 40 pounds. That you bought a new car rather than
rebalancing the trailer is even more ridiculous.

If Europeans want a faster plane, they refine the aerodynamics. If
Americans want a faster plane, they mount a bigger engine.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.

Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
for caravans?

The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.

Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
on a Focus car.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Oct 30, 12:22*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
Yes there is. *Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.

Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
for caravans?

The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.

Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
on a Focus car.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * *

My experience is that a Cobra or Komet type with std or 15m glider in
it needs 100 - 150 # on the tongue to be stable at 70 mph.

Clearly, if you average 29+ mpg towing, you are traveling closer to 50
than 70 mph, as a rule. Either that or our US cars are even more
gruesomely strangled by our EPA than I realized.

Here in the states... and 31 of our states individually are bigger
than England... it's necessary to maintain 65 - 70 mph to avoid being
a traffic bottleneck. Furthermore, we have these huge long steep
grades in many places -- Virginia/North Carolina, Pennsylvania,
Colorado and California all come immediately to mind -- and on the
downhill stretches it is common to get passed by trucks going well
over 80 mph. This is no time to find out you are marginal on
stability.... A Cobra trailer with 40 lbs on the tongue will surely
have you in the ditch.

Many are the days I wish we had gliding clubs walking distance apart
as you do....

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Oct 30, 9:22*am, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
Yes there is. *Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.

Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
for caravans?

The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.

Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
on a Focus car.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

The 10% figure came from on-line searches, and calls to a couple
trailer shops. The information was for trailers in general, though at
the time I was helping a friend with an uncooperative boat trailer. My
experience is quite limited, but between two otherwise nearly
identical Komet trailers, (both towed behind my ridiculously large
truck) the one with the higher tongue weight was vastly more stable.

On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 wrote:
Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
work.

So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
tear up the transmission.

I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.

Thanks, Ryan

Related to this, the new model year Outback looks like just the
ticket. My neighbor just brought one home, and it's definitely
looking even better than the prior model years. It now rides a bit
higher - just the thing for the occasional off-field retrieve. Also,
wheelbase is longer while the rear overhang is shorter.

I currently tow with a V6 powered VW Passat wagon with the 4motion
transmission. Great tow vehicle. The Subaru looks even better.
I may get the V6, as the difference in mileage in highway driving
(most of my driving) is marginal.

P3

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:40:48 -0700, T8 wrote:

My experience is that a Cobra or Komet type with std or 15m glider in it
needs 100 - 150 # on the tongue to be stable at 70 mph.

Fair comment. Some trailers are less stable than others and I was
forgetting that the Komet our club Pegase lives in is a lot less stable
than my box type, despite having 2-3 times more tongue weight.

Clearly, if you average 29+ mpg towing, you are traveling closer to 50
than 70 mph, as a rule. Either that or our US cars are even more
gruesomely strangled by our EPA than I realized.

That's Imperial gallons. IIRC a US gallon is 0.8 Imperial gallons, so
that becomes around 24 mpg US. My speedometer does read 3-4 mph fast
according to my satnav, so I try to keep my motorway speed between 60-65
indicated. As others have said, the towing limit is 60 vs 70 for
unencumbered cars.

Furthermore, we have these huge long steep grades
in many places -- Virginia/North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Colorado and
California all come immediately to mind -- and on the downhill stretches
it is common to get passed by trucks going well over 80 mph.

Tell me about it! I've driven Denver-Sacramento via Salinas, St. George,
Las Vegas and Bakersfield and Sacramento-Denver via Tahoe, Minden, Salt
Lake City and Cheyenne in a 4 cylinder automatic Toyota and, even without
a trailer, it really didn't like the grades over the Rockies. I can't
imagine who would think that designing a 4 speed automatic box that could
only be locked in 1st and 2nd but not 3rd was a good idea, but there you
go.

Many are the days I wish we had gliding clubs walking distance apart as
you do....

Come over and enjoy our summer soaring weather any time!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Oct 30, 7:19*am, Bob wrote:
I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
the trailer is rated? Just wondering.

Bob (waiting for the wave)

Not sure about the insurance thing, but the 100 kph tow speed limit
does explain why most in Europe profess their trailers tow just fine.
I tow a larger Komet trailer with a 3.0L Toyota Sienna and all is well
up to 65mph (105 kph). At 70 it's managable, but requires attention.
At 75 (120 kph) it's a real handful. I guess we're a bit spoiled, but
covering long distances at 60 mph is tedious at best & I'm awfully
tempted to modify my trailer to tow better at higher speeds.

Craig

Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.

For trailers up to 3.5 tons, the German law asks for 4% of the trailer
weight or 25kg, whichever is lower. Not surprisingly, the trailer
manufactorer I asked said something similiar.

On Oct 30, 11:13*am, Papa3 wrote:
On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 wrote:

Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
work.

So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
tear up the transmission.

I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.

Thanks, Ryan

Related to this, the new model year Outback looks like just the
ticket. * My neighbor just brought one home, and it's definitely
looking even better than the prior model years. *It now rides a bit
higher - just the thing for the occasional off-field retrieve. *Also,
wheelbase is longer while the rear overhang is shorter.

I currently tow with a V6 powered VW Passat wagon with the 4motion
transmission. * *Great tow vehicle. *The Subaru looks even better.
I may get the V6, as the difference in mileage in highway driving
(most of my driving) is marginal.

P3

What's with the Brits these days? This is a thread, primarily by
Americans, about who well you can tow gliders with a Subaru, except
for some Brits who jump in to make fun of Americans insisting on
towing with giant SUV's. Please read the posts, we are discussing
towing with small cars not big cars.

An excellent car for towing is the smaller Volvos. I like the V40 1.9t
4cyl, it's rated for 2,000 lbs. and 200lbs. on the tongue, great fun
to drive and tows like a dream. Had a 2001 and sold it when I found a
2004 with 10K miles on it. The V50 is just a good. A little more fun
to drive than a Subaru (got one of those too) but the road clearance
can be a problem.

Brian

True Del

I towed for years with a 1600cc hatchback. BUT = having driven in both
countries I must respectfully suggest that there are considerations in
countries that are not as sea level, as flat and cool as the UK.

So - when was the last time you hooked a trailer and drove at freeway
speed (120kmh) for 700km? At 3000-5000+ MSL? with an ambient
temperature 30C .

Sure a small car can do it (I have proven that), and I agree that the
clumsy behemoths so beloved by some are a pain to drive, are appalling
tow vehicles and guzzle fuel for no utility. However, I have to say that
the comfort, stability and ease of towing behind a large 2.5l Turbo is
worth the general higher day to day cost of operation. Interestingly,
having done back to back trips in the compact, manual 1600 hatch and the
automatic 4WD Volvo - the small car actually used marginally more fuel
on the same trip, with the same trailer and driver, while being around
10% slower. On the work commute you pay in fuel consumption, but the big
car is 5 years old and so low stress that it is pretty much "as new" -
long economical life also influences total cost of ownership...

I submit that the similarly equipped Subaru would also make an excellent
choice. Adequate power, agility, stability (esp the 4WD) versions.

If I lived in the UK my tow vehicle would probably also be a 1400/1600
diesel. Where I live it is a lot less practical.

For what it is worth I averaged 10.4l/100km over the last 85000km - the
little hatch did around 9 over 250000.
Towing a streamlined single seater trailer I get 10.5-11.2 depending on
how much Drakensberg there is in the trip. The bigger unstreamlined box
for the kestrel results in slower speed and ~14l/100. The hatch was
unsafe towing this trailer at any speed above 80km/h.

Bruce

delboy wrote:
As a Brit, I just love these US discussions about the impossibilty of
towing glider trailers with anything that doesn't weigh at least 3
tons, with a huge gas guzzling V8 engine. Due to our Government's
dependence on fuel duties, which are extortionate, most of us own
quite modest sized cars, but we still tow glider trailers around. A
1.6 litre vehicle will tow a single seater glider trailer perfectly
well and 2.0 litres for a two seater trailer. It is probably best to
keep the speed below 60 mph though (legal speed limit for trailers
anyway in the UK) . Automatic gearboxes may need an oil cooler fitted.

Derek Copeland


On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, rlovinggood wrote:
Ryan,

I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
transmission.

Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
the scales. Result: 2,040 lbs! A LOT heavier than I had
anticipated. Tongue weight is 180 lbs. That, too is a lot more than
anticipated. But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
had to look for in a tow vehicle. Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
was going to be my every day driver, too. So, it had to be affordable
to purchase and to drive. And the Subaru fit the bill.

The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. Seems to be
different in different countries. Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
has brakes. Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. My
trailer, a Swan, has brakes. Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.

While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. Necessary?
I don't know. But I had it installed anyway. Subaru doesn't offer an
auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
transmission shop install it for me.

Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
Virginia and West Virginia without problems. On those climbs, I
pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
50 mph. I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
was cool. I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
mountains on a hot day. There is a transmission temperature "idiot
light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
I've never seen it come on. Not really sure if that means the tranny
is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
down before preceeding on...

Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. Without the trailer, on
the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. As an everyday driver, it does
just fine. No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. It's
noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. But here's the main point:
It is rated to tow my trailer. Nothing else matters.

Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. Your
fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.

The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. I think in the
previous six, you had to use premium. If you get the four cylinder, I
think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
how that would work out for towing.

In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
diesel. Too bad we don't have that available in America. Not yet,
anyway.

So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA