Feds Want to Equipe Gliders With Transponders and Radios

On Sat, 03 May 2008 20:15:32 -0400, Jennifer Allen
wrote in :



Larry Dighera wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:15:03 GMT, wrote in
:



The FAA radars are what they are.

You can arm wave forever about what they could be, but that isn't going
to change them.

But decommissioning them, as part of the ADS-B implementation, will
make them moot.

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a
Decommissioning only the primary radar would result in both cost
avoidance (no upgrades) and maintenance cost-savings. Annual savings
estimates are approximately $30M per year. (Note: For purposes of
national defense, the primary radars around the peripheral of the
United States, would not be decommissioned in the near term).



http://astra.aero/downloads/ABIT/ABI...ting_final.pdf
The FAA envisions decommissioning. more than 300 en route radars. ...



http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...ance-broadcast
FAA segment 3 (2015-2020)

ADS-B In equipage will be based on user perceived benefit, but is
expected to be providing increased situational awareness and
efficiency benefits within this segment. Those aircraft who choose to
equip in advance of any mandate will see benefits associated with
preferential routes and specific applications. Limited radar
decommissioning will begin in the time frame with an ultimate goal of
a 50% reduction in the Secondary Surveillance Radar infrastructure.



http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0-07_Final.pdf
Will there be a back-up system for ADS-B?

Yes, the FAA recognizes that a back-up system is needed in case of
problems with the satellite system. In 2006, a team from the FAA,
industry, and the military performed an analysis, taking into account
such things as the operational capability needed during an outage, the
length of time the back-up system would be expected to operate during
an outage, and any overlap between the back-up and ADS-B that would
result in a vulnerability. The agency adopted the team’s
recommendation to maintain about half the current network of
*secondary* radars as a back-up system in case of a GPS outage.

In article "Morgans" writes:

"Eric Greenwell" wrote
This corresponds with the Powersonic chart, so at -10C (15F), you have a 30%
loss of capacity. For winter flying, and spring or fall flying in places where
you can climb to, say, 10,000' agl, it's an important factor. Especially so,
when you know your encoder will likely be using it's heater, adding 50-150
milliamps to your current drain.

Put a insulated cover around the battery, and the heat of discharge will keep
it warm and the capacity up, unless it is seriously freakin' cold.

With a resistance of a few milliohms, a 1 amp discharge will only give a
few milliwatts of heat. I really doubt the battery will keep itself warm.
(After all warming the battery would consume energy from its stored capacity.)

Alan

On May 4, 11:15*am, wrote:
In rec.aviation.piloting WingFlaps wrote:

On May 4, 8:37?am, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article ,

?WingFlaps wrote:
How slow does a target need to be to be undisplayed -typically? I
would have thought that even a glider is fast (45 knots) compared to
usual clutter.

Don't forget that it's the radial velocity that is detected by skin paint.

Aha, someone who understands Dopplewho knows!. data from the secondary
sites can fix that problem.

The FAA radars are what they are.


I agree

Cheers

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On Sun, 04 May 2008 08:47:53 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

Although that is inconsistent with the FAA information cited in the
link I posted, we can only hope that your intuition is accurate It
would be a grave mistake in my lay opinion. I believe decommissioning
radars was only mentioned by the FAA as a hastily considered attempt
to overcome the financial disincentive of implementing ADS-B; while
we're speculating, it was probably initially suggested by the
contractor(s) who is(are) lobbying for NextGen.


The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


Without primary radars there is no way, other than intercepts, of
knowing the true position of a flight. To intentionally lose that
empirical capability seems shortsighted. But then my opinion is only
based on incomplete knowledge of the system. Perhaps there are
alternate sources for such information (doubtful). For some reason
(possibly because contractors believe that if they don't mention it,
no one will notice) the loss of empirical flight location is not
addressed in the proposed ADS-B implementation.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In article "Morgans"
writes:

"Eric Greenwell" wrote
This corresponds with the Powersonic chart, so at -10C (15F), you have a
30%
loss of capacity. For winter flying, and spring or fall flying in places
where
you can climb to, say, 10,000' agl, it's an important factor. Especially
so,
when you know your encoder will likely be using it's heater, adding
50-150
milliamps to your current drain.

Put a insulated cover around the battery, and the heat of discharge will
keep
it warm and the capacity up, unless it is seriously freakin' cold.

With a resistance of a few milliohms, a 1 amp discharge will only give a
few milliwatts of heat. I really doubt the battery will keep itself warm.
(After all warming the battery would consume energy from its stored
capacity.)

Alan

The greater problem might be a need to remove the problem during charging,
when a lot more heat is likely to be generated.

Peter

(After all warming the battery would consume energy from its stored capacity.)

Sure, but a warm battery can deliver more power than a really cold battery.

Tony V.

Bob Noel wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY
(NEADS) have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars,
including the FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11.


Initially, it was the other way round. Many of the present FAA enroute
radars are former ADC radars. The FAA expanded their enroute radar coverage
in the late fifties and early sixties by acquiring feeds on USAF radar.

On Sun, 04 May 2008 09:37:13 -0400, Peter Dohm wrote:


The greater problem might be a need to remove the problem during charging,
when a lot more heat is likely to be generated.

I use an automatic charger with bulk charge and float modes.
This unit is designed for 12v batteries in the 6-15Ah capacity range.
It outputs 14.7v at 1.5 amps in bulk mode. My batteries never even get
warm to the touch when on charge.

I'd suggest that if your batteries get hot on charge then there are only
three possibilities:

- you're using a fixed-rate charger with far too high a rate for
the battery.
- you're overcharging with a fixed-rate changer.
- your automatic charger is faulty.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including
the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also
have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

There would be little value in adding the ability to use the 200+ FAA primary
radars if they were going away soon. (ok, some of that 200+ number might be
beacon radar only)


As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

The FAA beancounters know that the FAA's responsibility does not include
tracking and identifying bad guys. The b'crats are only thinking about
their budget and ways to get other agencies to pay for things.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)