Glider Crash - Minden?

Ramy wrote:
Of course, we shouldn't blame anyone at this point, and my appologize
if it sounded like, we don't even know yet if the glider had a
transponder or not. I was just trying to make a point (again) on the
importance of transponders, as the only mean currently available to us
to avoid these kind of accidents. But how can a jet travelling at over
300 knots, which may have been 400 knots closing speed, could see a
glider on time to react if (assuming) the glider was flying straight
and level? It is almost impossible to see a glider more then a mile
away if it is not turning or zooming. This translates into 5 seconds or
so to see and react at these speeds.
Since on average we are circling say 30% of the time, we are invisible
70% of the time we are in the air.The only reason we don't collide all
the time is that the sky is big and gliders are small. See and Avoid
only works in traffic pattern, not when crusing. Check the following
article:
http://dwp.bigplanet.com/fosterfligh...ants&UID=10015
To avoid making myself unpopular, I'll rest my case. I am very glad no
one was hurt, and hope that more pilots will fly with transponders at
their own choice as a result. And if you do, please don't turn it off
away from Reno, especially not over the white mountains as some of us
are flying with TPAS. If you don't use a tranponder, please make a
circle every few minutes...

Ramy

SAM 303a wrote:
Sure, blame the victim.
I haven't seen anything that suggests that the glider pilot was in any way
at fault. The glider was hit by the jet, not vice versa. Visual rules were
in effect.
Why are we asking what else could the glider pilot do?
Why aren't we asking "what else could the jet pilot have done?"
The jet does not have a greater right to use the skies than the glider.

I'm not arguing against transponders. I am arguing in favor of taking a
stand on the principle that we all have a right to use the skies, subject to
our compliance with the appropriate rules. We should not stand before the
regulators saying "we'll add any gizmo you ask if you'll just let us keep
flying". If anyone was at fault here it was the jet pilot for (pick one or
more of the following) not maintaining a visual scan of traffic, flying too
fast to react to the presence of a glider, not recognizing that the
sectional markings showing a glider port might be significant to how she
operated the aircraft.


"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash in Minden? True or
False?

-EX

Why are we asking what else could the glider pilot do?
Why aren't we asking "what else could the jet pilot have done?"
The jet does not have a greater right to use the skies than the glider.

Furthermore, let's not forget the FAA right of way rules. A glider has
right of way over all powered craft unless that craft is in distress.

reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..
BT

"Ramy Yanetz" wrote in message
om...
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
ups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash in Minden? True or
False?

-EX

BTIZ wrote:
reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..

Maybe using it? I don't think it's been confirmed the transponder was
operating, but I'm sure ATC knows, and should have the tapes to prove it.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

I was told that the transponder was brand new, and not certified yet,
so it was not turned on...

BTIZ wrote:
reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..
BT

....and what is the downside of operating a new but uncertified
transponder? Can't be worse than getting run over by a bizjet.


Mike


Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I was told that the transponder was brand new, and not certified yet,
so it was not turned on...

BTIZ wrote:
reports are the ASG29 had a transponder..
so now what are we going to enforce..
BT

I'm glad nobody was seriously hurt... that is a miracle!

Can anyone report the conditions at 16,000 feet at the time of the
collision, and the class of airspace?

wrote:
Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden on the Pinenut
mountains.

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5337875


Update with picture of glider pilot and damaged jet.

We are having a battle in the UK to stop the CAA (Civil
Aviation Authority, otherwise known as the 'Campaign
Against Aviation') enforcing the mandatory carriage
of Mode S transponders in all aircraft, which includes
gliders. The basic bit of kit costs about £1600 plus
fitting by an 'approved' organisation and Value Added
Tax (17.5%). In total we estimate this will cost at
least £3000+ per glider, with additional ongoing servicing
and licencing costs. Then there are all the extra batteries
that we will have to carry if we want to fly for more
than about 3 hours, which will have to come out of
our permitted MAUW. The fittings for the extra batteries
may have to have design approval by EASA, which is
another major cost.

Although transponders work perfectly well in IMC conditions,
they are also trying to impose strict VMC conditions
on gliding.

You may have enough money to fit and run a Mode S transponder
Ramy, but many private owners of older sailplanes do
not. An airworthy wooden gliders can be picked up for
£3k or less in the UK. Even for club owned gliders,
this proposal would significantly increase the cost
of flying gliders.

Most collisions involving gliders are with other gliders
in thermals or on ridges, or with GA or military aircraft.
Mode S transponders do little or nothing to address
this problem. Hence we are being asked to pay large
sums of money for protecting Commercial Airliners that
wish to take short cuts through Class G airspace, without
any benefits to us. Speaking personally I would be
less hostile to fitting ADS-B or FLARM systems, which
are cheaper, less power hungry and are of some benefit
to glider pilots in detecting other aircraft. Otherwise
we should expect all pilots to keep a good lookout
when flying in Class G.

Derek Copeland


At 05:00 29 August 2006, Ramy Yanetz wrote:
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming
not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno
area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
oups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from
San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden
on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining
minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash
in Minden? True or
False?

-EX

Derek, I am not advocating mode S transponder (which I couldn't efford
one either ), it is doing nothing to improve safety then mode C,which
should cost around 2K in the US, no more then a flight computer.
I absolutly agree, Flarm or ADS-B are far better, but it may take
another generation until it will be widely implemented, especially in
the US. Meanwhile, at least in the US, our only option is the 30 years
old technology of transponders, which are relatively effordable for
most pilots I see flying at the Reno area.

Ramy

Derek Copeland wrote:
We are having a battle in the UK to stop the CAA (Civil
Aviation Authority, otherwise known as the 'Campaign
Against Aviation') enforcing the mandatory carriage
of Mode S transponders in all aircraft, which includes
gliders. The basic bit of kit costs about £1600 plus
fitting by an 'approved' organisation and Value Added
Tax (17.5%). In total we estimate this will cost at
least £3000+ per glider, with additional ongoing servicing
and licencing costs. Then there are all the extra batteries
that we will have to carry if we want to fly for more
than about 3 hours, which will have to come out of
our permitted MAUW. The fittings for the extra batteries
may have to have design approval by EASA, which is
another major cost.

Although transponders work perfectly well in IMC conditions,
they are also trying to impose strict VMC conditions
on gliding.

You may have enough money to fit and run a Mode S transponder
Ramy, but many private owners of older sailplanes do
not. An airworthy wooden gliders can be picked up for
£3k or less in the UK. Even for club owned gliders,
this proposal would significantly increase the cost
of flying gliders.

Most collisions involving gliders are with other gliders
in thermals or on ridges, or with GA or military aircraft.
Mode S transponders do little or nothing to address
this problem. Hence we are being asked to pay large
sums of money for protecting Commercial Airliners that
wish to take short cuts through Class G airspace, without
any benefits to us. Speaking personally I would be
less hostile to fitting ADS-B or FLARM systems, which
are cheaper, less power hungry and are of some benefit
to glider pilots in detecting other aircraft. Otherwise
we should expect all pilots to keep a good lookout
when flying in Class G.

Derek Copeland


At 05:00 29 August 2006, Ramy Yanetz wrote:
A miracle. Did the ASG 29 used a transponder? Assuming
not, I am wondering
if he could not afford one...
This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!
Maybe by enforcing the use of transponders in the Reno
area? I don't see a
problem with that...

Ramy

wrote in message
oups.com...
Rumor control here...

Challenger 800X with 5 on board on route to Reno from
San Diego
collided with an ASG29 around 16,000ft east on Minden
on the Pinenut
mountains.

The Jet landed gear up at Carson City the pilot sustaining
minor
injuries in the initial impact.

The Glider Pilot bailed and landed ok.

Look at KRNV.com or RGJ.com for more info.

This is not good as there are elections going on in
NV right now and
you know some moron politician is going to try to
make the skies
safer!!

Later

Al


Mitch wrote:
Heard there may have been a glider - biz jet crash
in Minden? True or
False?

-EX