Searching for soaring centres in Europe

hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

A Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident will fly a gilder in a
legal fashion only, if the Flarm is removed from the glider. But some
glider hirer will allow the removal of the Flarm, because most likely
his hull insurance will not pay, as would my hull insurance if I would
remove the Flarm from my glider. Furthermore a lot of soaring sites
allow take off only with functional Flarm.

The big problem is, that a Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident
can sign no legal binding document that frees the manufacturer from
liability.

What liability are we talking about? And how could that liability be
any greater than that of any other manufacturer of electronic devices
for aircraft?

The document will be binding only for him but not for the
surviving dependents or for the entities that have to support the
surviving dependents.


Hans

hans schrieb:

A Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident will fly a gilder in a
legal fashion only, if the Flarm is removed from the glider.

As I read it, the "US or Canadian citizen" part has been removed from
the manual.

Stefan

Greg Arnold schrieb:

What liability are we talking about?

The "hey, this was supposed to be a collition warning device" liability.
I don't know how many of the US liability sentence stories which are
reported over here are true, but obviously the FLARM people don't want
to find this out the hard way.

And how could that liability be any greater than that of any other
manufacturer of electronic devices for aircraft?

Obviously, the FLARM people just don't want to deal with the US legal
system. It's entirely their right to decide so.

Stefan

hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

A Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident will fly a gilder in a
legal fashion only, if the Flarm is removed from the glider.

I don't understand, legal in what sense? The Flarm manual states that a
US resident can't fly a Flarm equipped glider. IFAIK, this is simply to
cover their asses. Should I, as a US resident, expect to have some
government agent knocking on my door should I fly a Flarm equipped
glider in Europe? I suspect not.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

At many gilder fields in the Alps gilders will be only allowed to be
operated with an operational Flarm. As the use of Flarm by US and
Canadian nationals and residents is not permitted, this excludes lots of
good sites in Europe.

are you saying that a rented glider, equipped with a Flarm,
can not be flown by a Canadian pilot?

Nice yoke by Hans, but this is simply the text for a disclaimer from
manufacturer of Flarm.
Not very important, I think.

Hi Hans,

I do not agree with your statement.
Please have a look at the manual version 3.02E (page 12): 'Operation of
FLARM is forbidden in the USA or Canada or in aircraft registered in the
USA or Canada.' There is no statement on Canadian or USA pilots flying
in Europe!
In earlier versions of the manual (e.g. version 1) the statement was
much stricter. There the usage was also excluded
- for US or Canadian pilots and
- if a passengers residing in the USA or Canada was aboard and
- if a citizen of the USA and Canada was aboard.
Apparently this limitations were dropped. I think this is a development
towards the good direction.

Regards
Bear


hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

A Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident will fly a gilder in a
legal fashion only, if the Flarm is removed from the glider. But some
glider hirer will allow the removal of the Flarm, because most likely
his hull insurance will not pay, as would my hull insurance if I would
remove the Flarm from my glider. Furthermore a lot of soaring sites
allow take off only with functional Flarm.

The big problem is, that a Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident
can sign no legal binding document that frees the manufacturer from
liability. The document will be binding only for him but not for the
surviving dependents or for the entities that have to support the
surviving dependents.


Hans





Udo schrieb:
Hi Hans,
are you saying that a rented glider, equipped with a Flarm,
can not be flown by a Canadian pilot?
Udo
hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

At many gilder fields in the Alps gilders will be only allowed to be
operated with an operational Flarm. As the use of Flarm by US and
Canadian nationals and residents is not permitted, this excludes lots of
good sites in Europe.

Best Regards

Hans




Udo schrieb:
I will be in Europe for an extended holiday next spring.
I am looking for other centres similar to St.Auban.

I have contacted St.Auban and submitted my resume, but no answer.
Since then I have contacted them several times but no luck.
Also I am in touch with the people that run the British Over Sea's
Nat's in Spain. They do not have a glider I want.
I am open for suggestions in the southern regions in Europe, provided
there are reasonable weather conditions for soaring in May.
If you have any direct experience with a commercial or club operations,
that would rent a gliders
for a week or longer, let me know.
Thanks for any input.
Udo

I like to remind you all that our legal system in Canada is different,
and is much closer to the British system, in Quebec it is closer to the
French approach to law. Please do not put us into the same legal
category as the US system.
Udo
Stefan wrote:
Greg Arnold schrieb:

What liability are we talking about?

The "hey, this was supposed to be a collition warning device" liability.
I don't know how many of the US liability sentence stories which are
reported over here are true, but obviously the FLARM people don't want
to find this out the hard way.

And how could that liability be any greater than that of any other
manufacturer of electronic devices for aircraft?

Obviously, the FLARM people just don't want to deal with the US legal
system. It's entirely their right to decide so.

Stefan

Hi Bear!

I have only the handbook that belongs to my Flarm, which was produced
and delivered at the beginning of 2004. And in this manual is the clear
statement that the use of Flarm by citizens and permanent residents of
the US and Canada is not allowed by the manufacturer of Flarm. If this
is changed for later versions of the Flarm this is very good news.

So you just have to ensure that
1) you get a later version of the handbook,
2) upload new software to the flarm, and
3) you don't use version 1 of the hardware.

It is very good that hardware version 2.xx is now also covered by the
new statement in handbook 3.02 on the use by US and Canadian citizens.
This will allow me to fly with some of my friends in gliders of our
club, when the come over to Europe.


Hans


Bear schrieb:
Hi Hans,

I do not agree with your statement.
Please have a look at the manual version 3.02E (page 12): 'Operation of
FLARM is forbidden in the USA or Canada or in aircraft registered in the
USA or Canada.' There is no statement on Canadian or USA pilots flying
in Europe!
In earlier versions of the manual (e.g. version 1) the statement was
much stricter. There the usage was also excluded
- for US or Canadian pilots and
- if a passengers residing in the USA or Canada was aboard and
- if a citizen of the USA and Canada was aboard.
Apparently this limitations were dropped. I think this is a development
towards the good direction.

Regards
Bear


hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

A Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident will fly a gilder in a
legal fashion only, if the Flarm is removed from the glider. But some
glider hirer will allow the removal of the Flarm, because most likely
his hull insurance will not pay, as would my hull insurance if I would
remove the Flarm from my glider. Furthermore a lot of soaring sites
allow take off only with functional Flarm.

The big problem is, that a Canadian or US citizen or permanent resident
can sign no legal binding document that frees the manufacturer from
liability. The document will be binding only for him but not for the
surviving dependents or for the entities that have to support the
surviving dependents.


Hans





Udo schrieb:
Hi Hans,
are you saying that a rented glider, equipped with a Flarm,
can not be flown by a Canadian pilot?
Udo
hans wrote:
Hi Udo!

At many gilder fields in the Alps gilders will be only allowed to be
operated with an operational Flarm. As the use of Flarm by US and
Canadian nationals and residents is not permitted, this excludes lots of
good sites in Europe.

Best Regards

Hans




Udo schrieb:
I will be in Europe for an extended holiday next spring.
I am looking for other centres similar to St.Auban.

I have contacted St.Auban and submitted my resume, but no answer.
Since then I have contacted them several times but no luck.
Also I am in touch with the people that run the British Over Sea's
Nat's in Spain. They do not have a glider I want.
I am open for suggestions in the southern regions in Europe, provided
there are reasonable weather conditions for soaring in May.
If you have any direct experience with a commercial or club operations,
that would rent a gliders
for a week or longer, let me know.
Thanks for any input.
Udo

As a US citizen who flys FLARM equipped gliders in southern Germany,I
think this is a non issue. US pilots go to St. Aubin and other European
sites all the time and fly gliders that are FLARM equipped. Don't
worry about the naysayers, the insurance coverage will still be valid,
and the operators will gladly rent you their equipment.

Bob McDowell

hans wrote:
Hi Bear!

I have only the handbook that belongs to my Flarm, which was produced
and delivered at the beginning of 2004. And in this manual is the clear
statement that the use of Flarm by citizens and permanent residents of
the US and Canada is not allowed by the manufacturer of Flarm. If this
is changed for later versions of the Flarm this is very good news.

So you just have to ensure that
1) you get a later version of the handbook,
2) upload new software to the flarm, and
3) you don't use version 1 of the hardware.

It is very good that hardware version 2.xx is now also covered by the
new statement in handbook 3.02 on the use by US and Canadian citizens.
This will allow me to fly with some of my friends in gliders of our
club, when the come over to Europe.


FLARM Manuals he

http://www.flarm.com/support/manual/


From page 2:

"To use existing devices after March 1, 2006 it is required
to update the software to version 3.00 or higher.

[....]

"Software-Versions 3.x will only remain operational until the
end of February 2008. After this date, you must update the
device in order to use it in the air."


From page 12:

"Operation of FLARM is forbidden in the USA or Canada
or in aircraft registered in the USA or Canada."




Jack